Portal talk:Gd

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"thu" neo "sibh"

Dè bhios sinn a’ cleachdadh "thu" neo "sibh" anns an eadar-aghaidh? An-dràsta tha droch mheasgachadh ann. (M.e.: D' ainm-cleachdaidh is Am facal-faire agaibh air an duilleig "Log a-steach")

Na beachdan agam-sa:
Cò bhios a’ cleachdadh Wikipedia, daoine òga le coimpiutair (m.e.: ann an Wki Gearmailteach tha 51,3 % eadar 18 is 32 bliadhna a dh’aois, faic: Staitistearachd ann am Wikipedia Gearmailteach) neo am bi e mì-mhodhail thu a chleachdadh a-rèir traidisean na Gàidhlig? --Sionnach 07:47, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


Tha mi gu math toilichte gun do thog thu a’ cheist seo, a Shionnaich, oir is e ceist mhór a th’ ann agus bha mi a’ dol a ràdh rudeigin m’a dheidhinn.

Mar a thuirt thu, tha droch mheasgachadh ann an-dràsta. Tha rudan ann mar “Sàbhail na mùthaidhean agaibh” (an àite “Sàbhalaibh na mùthaidhean agaibh”) (agus tha mi a’ smaoineachadh, cuideigin a bhiodh ag ràdh “sibh”, gum biodh e cuideachd ag ràdh “ur” an àite “agaibh”); tha “Am facal-faire agaibh / Ath-sgrìobh facal-faire” (an àite “Ath-sgrìobhaibh (ur) facal-faire).

Tha mi a’ smaoineachadh gum biodh e na bu shìmplidh agus na bu ghiorra(!) “thu” a’ sgrìobhadh fad an t-siubhail an àite “sibh”. ’S e saoghal gu math neo-fhoirmeil a tha ann an saoghal na coimpiutaireachd. Chan eil “sibh” cho cumanta sa Ghàidhlig agus a tha “Sie” sa Ghearmailtis no “vous” sa Fhrangais no “chi” sa Chuimris. Chan eil an òigrigh idir a’ cleachdadh “sibh” ri càch-a-chéile. ’S ann ri daoine gu mór nas sine as motha a thathar a’ cleachdadh “sibh” anns a’ Ghàidhlig. Chan eil daoine an dùil ri modh mar sin bho choimpiutair.

Nuair a rinn mi eadar-theangachadh Gàidhlig de Opera bliadhnaichean air ais (nach do chum mi a’ dol, gu mì-fhortanach), chleachd mi “thu” agus bha daoine gu math riaraichte leis. Nuair a rinn iad eadar-theangachadh Gàidhlig de OpenOffice, chleachd iad “sibh” agus cha robh daoine riaraichte leis idir, gu h-àraid anns na sgoiltean. Thionndaich iad an uair sin gu “thu”.

Tha mi a’ faicinn, ged a tha “Sie” nas cumanta sa Ghearmailtis na tha “sibh” sa Ghàidhlig, gur e “Du” a tha Wikipedia na Gearmailtis a’ cleachdadh. M.e.: “Teile dein Passwort keiner anderen Person mit. Verzichte an öffentlichen Computern auf die Einstellung „dauerhaft anmelden“ und melde dich ab, wenn du den Computer verlässt.”

[Tha ceist mhór ann an coimpiutaireachd an-dràsta, nuair a chì thu rud air sgàil a’ choimpiutair có tha a’ bruidhinn ri có. An e thusa a tha a’ bruidhinn ris a’ choimpiutair, no an e an coimpiutair a tha a’ bruidhinn riutsa. (Agus có mise agus có thusa. Tha Amazon a’ canail “Your account” ri do chunntas ach tha iomadh àite eile a’ canail “My account” ris.) Tha mi a’ faicinn gu bheil Wikipedia na Gearmailtis agus Wikipedia na Frangais a’ faighinn seachad air seo ri bhith a’ cleachdadh an infinitive gu tric nuair is thusa a tha a’ bruidhinn ris a’ choimpiutair: “Créer un compte ou se connecter”, “Modifier”, “Voir le texte source”, “Anmelden”, “Seite bearbeiten”, “Quelltext betrachten”. Chan eil mi an dùil gum biodh an t-ainmear-gnìomhaireach (verbal noun) freagarrach airson sin anns a’ Ghàidhlig ge-tà (“Bunteacsa fhaicinn” an àite “Seall/Nochd am bunteacsa”). Tha cothroman eile sa Ghàidhlig nach eil ann an cànanan eile, ach chan eil iad cho cumanta san latha an-diugh agus a bha iad: “Faiceam am bunteacsa”, “Nochdar am bunteaca”.] -- Caoimhin 22:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Tha mi fhìn cuideachd am beachd gu b' fheàirdte "thu" a' cleachdadh fad an t-siubhail. Dè mu dheidhinn na h-Èireannaich? Bidh iadsan a' cleachdadh "tu" cuideachd, nach bi?--Steafan31 01:34, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Bidh cinnte. Chan eilear a’ cleachdadh “sibh” idir airson modh ann an Éirinn. Iolra a-mhàin a th’ ann an sin.

Thathar a’ cleachdadh “sibh” airson modh ann am Manainn ge-tà. Tha an suidheachadh acasan gu math coltach ris an t-suidheachadh ann an Gàidhlig na Albann. Tha mi air sùil a thoirt air Wikipedia na Manainnise agus ’s e “thu” a tha iad a’ cleachdadh:

  • Nagh vel log stiagh ayd? Croo coontys.
  • Shegin dhyt cur pooar da minniagyn dy loggal stiagh ayns Wikipedia.
  • Dt'ennym ymmydeyr
  • Cur dau m'ockle arrey er post-L

Tha AbairThusa agus MyGaelic.com agus Fòram na Gàidhlig a’ cleachdadh “thu”. -- Caoimhin 16:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

'S fheàrr leam "thu" cuideachd. (Tha fios agam gur urrainnear "thu" ag atharrachadh gu "sibh" ann an Wikipedia na Gearmailtis le "mo roghainnean" (de-formal - Deutsch (Sie-Form)), ma bhios tu "logged in", ach an toiseach tha an eadar-aghaidh a' nochdadh le "thu".) --Sionnach 18:07, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Àireamhan

For the interface we need to find out how many different words are needed for counting (m.e.: duilleag, dhuilleag, duilleagan.) Then the interface will be changed to the needs of the Gaelic language. As there are various ways of counting in Gaelic, please help to find out the best/most common one.

example example xx
1 duilleag fhacal
2 dhuilleag fhacal
3 duilleagan faclan
4 duilleagan faclan
... ...
10 duilleagan faclan
11 duilleag fhacal
12 dhuilleag fhacal
13 duilleagan faclan
... ...
20 duilleag facal
21 duilleag fhacal
22 dhuilleag fhacal
23 duilleagan faclan
.... ...
30 duilleagan faclan
31 duilleag fhacal
32 dhuilleag fhacal
33 duilleagan faclan
... ...
40 duilleag facal
41 duilleag facal
42 duilleag facal
43 duilleag facal
.... ...
100 duilleag facal
101 duilleag facal
102 duilleag facal
103 duilleag facal
1000 duilleag facal

(Please keep this discussion in English, as Raymond will help us to set this up.) --Sionnach 21:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


I don’t think we need anything quite as complicated as this. In fact it would be better to be simpler. It would be certainly be good to write out the first few numbers as you did:

example example xx
1 duilleag fhacal
2 dhuilleag fhacal
3 duilleagan faclan

probably even as far as 10:

4 duilleagan faclan
5 duilleagan faclan
6 duilleagan faclan
7 duilleagan faclan
8 duilleagan faclan
9 duilleagan faclan
10 duilleagan faclan

but after that I would just write the singular noun all the way after the numeral, and wouldn’t lenite it or anything:

11 duilleag facal
12 duilleag facal
13 duilleag facal
.... ...
22 duilleag facal
23 duilleag facal
.... ...

There are two reasons for this. One is that just as in English, when it comes to numbers, you write out something short and leave it to the reader to expand it to their taste, so the same is true in Gaelic. In English, you would write “We expect to arrive on 21 March”, or perhaps “We expect to arrive on 21st March”. You would read this out as “We expect to arrive on the twenty-first of March”, but you would not normally write “We expect to arrive on the 21st of March”.

The second reason is that the rules and customs pertaining to numbers in Gaelic are so impossibly complicated that you couldn’t hope to encompass them all. Taking 17 for example, most people would actually say, “Tha seachd duilleag deug anns an leabhar” (There are 17 pages in the book) using the singular, but most people would say, “Tha seachd facail (or faclan) deug anns an rosgrann” (There are 17 words in the sentence) using the plural. I guess the reason is that in the first case the 17 is more a measure of size, for which you use the singular. When it comes to bigger numbers, the variety of ways people people read them out it Gaelic is almost limitless - e.g. for “Tha 51 facal air an duilleig”:

  • Tha aon fhacal deug agus dà-fhichead air an duilleig.
  • Tha lethcheud ’s a h-aon deug faclan air an duilleig.
  • Tha lethcheud ’s a h-aon deug de dh’fhaclan air an duilleig.
  • Tha caogad ’s a h-aon facail air an duilleig.
  • Tha dà-fhichead 's a h-aon de dh’fhaclan air an duilleig.
  • ...

So to recap, using the correct form of the noun is important in Gaelic after numerals 1, 2, 3, if we want to look correct, but it quickly gets less important after that, and after 10 I think it is best not to bother at all but just to use the singular with no change at all.

A similar situation applies in Irish Gaelic, and I seem to remember somebody mentioning it last year on the Irish Gaelic translator’ forum at acmhainn.ie.

Incidentally, the latest (2005) version of Gaelic Orthographic Conventions has got itself into a mess by trying to imitate the English system of “1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... 10th, 11th, 12th, ... 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, ...”. They recommend writing “1d, 2na/ra, 3mh, 4mh, 5mh, 6mh, 7mh, 8mh, 9mh, 10mh”, and don’t say what to do after that. In fact it gets complicated because for the “21st day”, for example, some people would say, “a’ chiad latha air fhichead” while others would say, “an t-aonamh latha air fhichead”. It would be far better, I think, to remove the ambiguity and just write a generic “1mh, 2mh, 3mh, 4mh, ... 20mh, 21mh, 22mh, 23mh, ...” all the way through for the ordinals, just as the Irish write, “1ú, 2ú, 3ú, 4ú, ...”.

-- Caoimhin 22:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a good solution to me. I noticed that it was getting to complicated, but I wasn't sure where to simpify it. --Sionnach 19:45, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
@Caoimhin: I just noticed: Would "dà dhuilleig" be the correct form or is "dà dhuilleag" widely accepted as well? --Sionnach 12:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


Let me summarize:
  • 0 = ?
  • 1 = singular
  • 2 = a special form (what is the English name for it?)
  • 3-10 = plural
  • >= 11 = singular
Is this correct? Raymond 09:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Dual? Zero is usually not included in plural function. – Nike 10:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Dual = 2 [1]. --Sionnach 11:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
  • 1 = needs two different forms, depending whether the word changes (lenites) or not. --Sionnach 18:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

2 is historically the Indo-European “dual”, but in practice it is the same as the singular these days. As Sionnach says, though, there is the additional complication that 1 and 2 cause “lenition”. In the written language this means that if the noun begins with a any of the letters b,c,d,f,g,m,p,s,t, then ‘h’ is inserted following the first letter (and there are some additional complications in the case of words beginning with ‘s’). I am familiar with PHP, so when I have a bit of time I’ll look at the converPlural() functions for Russian and Slovenian which Raymond pointed me towards, and hopefully I'll be able to write something similar for Gaelic. -- Caoimhin 01:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Ceann-latha

Another good point you mentioned in the section just above, a Chaoimhin! I certainly like your idea about using "mh" after the numbers for dates. But in that case, would it be "19mh an Giblean 2009" or "19mh, an Giblean 2009" or "19mh Giblean 2009" or....

I just looked around at some of the other Wikies to see what they look like (which doesn’t mean that we have to follow them)

  • Wikipedia Gàidhlig: 18:23, 19 an Gearran 2009
(m.e.: Nochd mùthaidhean ùra o chionn 18:38, 19 an Gearran 2009)
  • English: Show new changes starting from 18:51, 21 February 2009
  • German: Nur Änderungen seit 19:39, 21. Feb. 2009 zeigen.
  • French: Afficher les nouvelles modifications depuis le 21 février 2009 à 19:42.
  • Dutch : Wijzigingen bekijken vanaf 21 feb 2009 19:44
  • Gaeilge: peáin athruithe nua ó 18:46, 21 Feabhra 2009 anuas.

The only other source for Gàidhig I could find is Ronald Black; Cothrom Ionnsachaidh (p. 172), where he writes: "16 Céitean 1988" to be used for letters.

Beachdan eile? --Sionnach 20:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


The style I was taught years ago by Iain Macdonald, Comhairle nan Leabhraichean (who is as much of an authority as anyone) is exactly as currently used in the Gàidhlig Wikipedia, i.e. “19 an Gearran 2009” - with no “mh” and with the article “an” in lower case. I think too that this is the style which is what is most commonly used, so I would just stick with it. I think it gives a good compromise between conciseness and readability. The capital letter on the month makes the month stand out, leaving out the “mh” avoids the problem of “ciad”, “dàrna”, “treas”, etc, while the article (which could be omitted if space was scarce) gives an indication to the eye that it is a date.

GOC (Gaelic Orthographic Conventions) 2005, gives a variety of possibilities including: “An 19mh den Ghearran”, “19mh (An) Gearran”, “19 (An) Gearran”, but I am not over impressed by GOC overall.

Personally, I’d be happy with “Nochd atharraidhean ùra bho 2009-02-19 18:23 a-nuas”, or nochd “Nochd atharraidhean ùra bho Diardaoin, 2009-02-19 18:23 a-nuas”, since I like international-style dates and I think the day of the week is more useful in Gàidhlig than is the month. But maybe other people would differ, and maybe we don’t want to make too many innovations all at once. -- Caoimhin 21:41, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

In that case I think we should just leave it the way it is. Looking at the recenct changes, in my opinion it makes more sense to have the time first, and then the date with a nice Gàidhlig month in it, m.e.: 18:23, 19 an Gearran 2009. Of course the rest of the sentence should be redone into better Gaelic later on. (The days don't show at all on these pages, don't know yet where they are hiding!). --Sionnach 20:27, 22 February 2009 (UTC)