Difference between revisions of "Portal talk:Grc"

From translatewiki.net
Jump to navigation Jump to search
m (newsectionlink)
Line 112: Line 112:
   
 
::The Dutch interface uses the imperative, but I think an infinitive would be also ok. [[Käyttäjä:SPQRobin|SPQRobin]] 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 20.34 (UTC)
 
::The Dutch interface uses the imperative, but I think an infinitive would be also ok. [[Käyttäjä:SPQRobin|SPQRobin]] 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 20.34 (UTC)
  +
:::I thought it over - imperative when the computer expects something from the user, such as "enter password", infinitive if the user asks something of the computer, such as "go to page". Latin has also infinitive. [[Käyttäjä:AndreasJS|AndreasJS]] 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 22.02 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:02, 18 June 2007

Links:

This page is for the discussion of interface translations into Ancient Greek.

I have a proposals to make:

  • for ἔρανος (which means "joint meal" or even "picknick" (that way of contribution)) εἰσφορά.--Lefcant 1. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 01.01 (UTC)

I am not too sure. My dictionary (Liddell and Scott's Greek-English) has as one of its definitions of ἔρανος "any contribution" (citing a use of ἔρανον φέρειν in Demosthenes "to contribute freely"), and another definition "a kindness, service, favour". Woodhouse suggests ἔρανος as a Greek translation of contribution generally, and implies that εἰσφορά has the idea of a financial contribution. These definitions of ἔρανος do seem to convey the idea of a wikipedia contribution, done freely for the good of the general community.

Ok, I'm convinced. Another question: Why have you put the μου three times as an encliticon (διάλεκτός μου, ἐφορώμενά μου, ἔρανοί μου) and at αἱρέσεις the non enclitic ἐμοῦ? According to my greek grammar "After a paroxytonon the monosyllabic encliticon loses its tone, the disyllabic keeps it". Shouldn't it then be αἱρέσεις μου?--Lefcant 1. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 20.00 (UTC)
Probably. I don't usually use accents in Greek, so there is a good chance that I was wrong :-) If you see any mistakes in my diacritics, don't hesitate to correct them! LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 1. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 21.39 (UTC)

E-mail

This was always going to be a problem, espaecially as the Greek ἤλεκτρον already means something different. Η-ἀγγελια is an obvious last resort. αὐτομάτη might just be able to get across the idea of electronic, or we could neologise and make ἤλεκτρονίκη. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 1. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 22.04 (UTC)

I am in favour of the neologism, we want it to be understandable in spite of some inaccuracies. ἠλεκτρικός -ή -όν is elektric but E-mail is electronic; would ἠλεκτρονικός > ἠλεκτρονική ἀγγελία as in modern greek fit? Neoligisms are usually taken from there. If we need more there is already the site Akropolis world news where news from all over the world were published in ancient greek (now unfortunately stopped). Just click on "Modern vocabulary" --Lefcant 2. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 00.35 (UTC)

I shall ask Juan Coderch's opinion on this. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 2. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 01.00 (UTC)

You know him? Is he well-known in Oxford?--Lefcant 2. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 01.04 (UTC)
I was surprised when I saw his name on the website! I have met him, and I know some people whom he teaches. He is one of the main teachers of Greek at the University. Hopefully he will not be too busy marking exams (students are doing their finals at the moment), to give us some help. Alas, I think it's time I went to bed. Farewell :-) LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 2. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 01.16 (UTC)

Quick update: he suggests ἠλεκτρονίκη ἐπιστολή. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 2. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 09.41 (UTC)

Sounds good an is fully understandable also for modern greeks but the accent should be on the η: ἠλεκτρονική ἐπιστολή. Would you add it like this? --Lefcant 2. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 14.52 (UTC)

Sysops and Bureaucrats

In the modern greek WP they are called Διαχειριστής συστήματος and Γραφειοκράτης; perhaps these two are more helpful for a reader... I don't know if someone will think of an administrator by reading γέρων... --Lefcant 3. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 21.40 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I am not sure that either of the modern terms would work in Ancient Greek. I personally think that comparing sysops to the gerousia and bureaucrats to the ephors is rather cute, and that it could work if we include a link on the main page to a list of Ancient Greek equivalents of wikipedia terminology (which will be necessary). LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 4. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 12.20 (UTC)
Well, if we create such a page it's OK, I'm just thinking of the usability.-- Lefcant 4. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 22.58 (UTC)

Months

I just saw that in the "Recent changes in grc" above the date is indicated as 2 Ἰούνιος 2007. In modern greek this is a genitive: 2 Ἰουνίου 2007. As this is taken from there, as I suppose, it should be similar, shouldn't it? So we'd have to change all months to the genitive form... Isn't there a way to make the system use the genitive forms that you've already completed? --Lefcant 3. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 19.33 (UTC)

I really would not know. SPQRobin might have an idea... LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 3. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 20.59 (UTC)

I also don't know that.. SPQRobin 4. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 15.17 (UTC)
It is possible to change the date format to use genitive forms. — Nike 4. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 15.29 (UTC)
Great, could you do it?--Lefcant 4. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 17.07 (UTC)
Well, now they look correct to me. A passing remark, Leigh: you seem to use quite often the double article for adjectives (αἱ μεταβολαί αἱ νέαι, οἱ σύνδεσμοι οἱ ἄλλοι) is there a special reason, why this would be preferable? As this exists in modern greek too, I know that it emphasizes the adjective (or further the attribute), but is that necessary? Shouldn't we standardise it?--Lefcant 4. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 21.07 (UTC)

In ancient Greek there is not much difference between, say, ὁ καλος δουλος and ὁ δουλος ὁ καλος. As far as I know the latter might sometimes mean "the slave, the one who is good", a slight contrast with the other slaves, whilst the first would simply mean "the good slave". But most of my grammars suggest that the distiction is very minor. I usually do it out of habit and for aesthetic reasons. Come to think about it, there might be a cause for writing οἱ σύνδεσμοι οἱ ἄλλοι to contrast it with internal links, but for the most part, these two uses of the adjective are interchangeable and largely a matter of taste. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 5. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 12.34 (UTC)

General

Some important buttons rest to be translated, here some suggestions:

  • Show preview: Δεικνύναι προεπισκόπησιν/προεπισκοπήν?
  • This is a minor edit: μικρὴ μεταβολὴ (μόνον)
  • Summary: σύλληψις/κεφαλαίωσις/σύνοψις
  • User is blocked: Ὁ χρώμενος ἀποκλεισμένος ἐστίν
  • Horizontal line (use sparingly): Ὁμαλὴ γραμμή (χρῆσθαι φειδωλῶς/μετὰ φειδωλίας)

--Lefcant 5. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 16.19 (UTC)

  • For "show preview", I would be wary about translating preview with a noun. Neither of those words are in my dictionary, and a google search produced nothing. The verb προεπισκοπέω is attested, but only for Strabo and Lucian, who are rather later than our target period of Greek. We may have to settle for either Δεικνύναι τὸ προεπισκοπεῖν or use some long winded formation with προ- (τὸ πρὸ τῆς μεταβολῆς?)
  • μικρὴ μεταβολή is fine.
  • Summary would probably be κεφάλαιον, that is what my dictionary says at any rate.
  • For "user is blocked", can we use ἀποκλεισμένος ὁ χρώμενος, maybe with a ὅδε or οὗτος? ἐστίν is not really necessary here (my prose comp. tutor says that ἐστίν should be used "with a sense of regret/failure")
  • For horizontal line: ὀβελός, see here. For use sparingly, perhaps μὴ λίαν χρῶ(χρῆσθε)? -ως adverbs are not really used very often in Greek. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 5. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 19.16 (UTC)


  • I'm sorry, I meant προεπισκόπησιν but that probably doesn't exist either... What about just leaving the δεικνύναι out and writing προεπισκοπεῖν?
  • Well my dictionary translates κεφάλαιον as "the principal thing", "the result", "the capital". As it is a German-Ancient Greek dictionary I looked up the word that is used in the german WP for summary and it says clearly συναίρεσις and κεφαλαίωσις. I'd really stick on them. Where did you look it up?
  • ἀποκλεισμένος οὗτος ὁ χρώμενος would that fit? (edit: oh I see it should be ἀποκεκλεισμένος perfect participle)
  • OK, Perseus convinces me: ὀβελός (μὴ λίαν(or ἄγαν?) χρῆσθε) (what form should χρῶ be?)
    (edit: couldn't we just write εὐθεῖα γραμμή for a straight line to have involved the "line"? I'd prefer that...)

--Lefcant 5. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 22.12 (UTC)

  • The verb on its own for preview should be just fine, especially as Greek is such a verbal language.
  • I looked up κεφάλαιον in Liddell & Scott's, (which is on Perseus), and it suggests that one meaning of it is along the lines of "the main point of the matter", citing uses in Thucydides and Xenophon, who are obviously authorities on Greek whom I think we should try to emulate. If your dictionary cites authors, could you tell me which Greek writers used those words? It could be that yours documents Greek over a wider period than mine.
  • Perhaps ὅδε would fit better than οὗτος Your suggestion is better the demonstrative pronoun is not necessary. And yes, perfect tense since the user is in a current state arriving from a previous action.
  • εὐθεῖα γραμμή might work, but if ὀβελός conveys the meaning surely one word is better than two, especially since we have so many long phrases already (most all of them created by me ;-) Since the word was used by Aristarchus (writing in a later period than I would prefer, but needs must...) to mean a straight line written (drawn?) to show that something was wrong, it seems perfect. Unless it meant more "underline" (can one use that as a noun? Well, I just did!), in which case it could be used there. Does anyone here know anything about Hellenistic punctuation?

By the way, I am trying to get some people who have rather better Greek than I have involved in the project, so perhaps some more light will be shed on these matters in the future...LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 6. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 18.35 (UTC)

Ok you are probably right, but if I came in as a new user in the future ancient greek wikipedia I wouldn't understand what ὀβελός is (whereas εὐθεῖα γραμμή...) nor would I take κεφάλαιον as "summary" (although I could guess it because of its position) but if this is all listed in the page with the main translations in English it's right. --Lefcant 6. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 23.07 (UTC)
In Perseus I get this ἀνακεφαλαίωσις but no κεφάλαιον... --Lefcant 6. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 23.45 (UTC)

Quick update. It is definately used this way in Thucydides, (Book 4 section 50 of his History of the Peloponnesian war). LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 10. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 11.14 (UTC)

Hmm ok I looked it up here in the greek Wikisource. Seems to be right, but I'm a little confused why Perseus doesn't mention it then... --Lefcant 10. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 12.57 (UTC)

Well, the dictionary does not actually say the word "summary", but one of the translations of κεφαλαιον has the same basic meaning. Perseus only shows results when the dictioary uses the exact word for which one is searching; unfortunately, search software has yet to gain a concept of synonyms. And thanks for cleaning up my mistakes, I can't believe I wrote δεικνυναι οἱ ἐρανοι! LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 10. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 13.54 (UTC)

General 2

  • You translated "differences" with "Τὰ διαφερόντες" wouldn't just διαφοραί be better?
  • "Τὰ ἐνθάδε ἀγόντες" for "What links here" -ες is a masculine and feminine nouns' ending. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it rather Tὰ ἐνθάδε ἄγοντα?
  • μαθήματα for mathematics is correct but has also other general meanings. Whereas ἡ μαθηματική is pricise; any objections to change it?--Lefcant 10. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 13.37 (UTC)
  1. διαφοραί could work, but abstract nouns like this are not used often in classical Greek; they tend to be more of a late 4th century/Hellenistic development. I think someone like Thucydides or Plato would be more likely to use a verb (well, participle here). I have been concentrating on this area of the language quite recently, and my prose teacher always tells us to use verbs or adjectives to translate abstract nouns.
  2. Yes, neuter is correct.
  3. I think Τὰ μαθηματικά. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 10. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 13.54 (UTC)
Ok, it's obvious that I'm influenced by modern greek (that's also why I wrote μικρή...). I changed it to Tὰ διαφέροντα.--Lefcant 10. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 17.07 (UTC)
Article = ἡ χρῆμα? I thought we had named it δέλτος? Or was this just "page"? Besides it's τὸ χρῆμα. "Content Page" in the german Wikipedia is not named differently from "Article" so this is OK but I don't like χρῆμα, it's too general, it can even mean "money" (which is also its meaning in modern greek) --Lefcant 10. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 22.39 (UTC)


Kilobyte

χιλιοδῆγμα, abbreviated ΧΔ? Leigh (talk) 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 11.32 (UTC)

Προστακτική;

I think that most texts should be in the imperative instead of the infinitive. Go should be translated ἵει and not ἱέναι etc., depending on the context. Please comment AndreasJS 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 19.18 (UTC)

Well it was ἰέναι and the imperative of this would be ἴθι but the infinitive is just fine. (In der deutschen Wikipedia heißt es auch "anwenden" an dieser Stelle und nicht "wende an", das lässt sich problemlos aufs Altgriechische übertragen ;-) (Sorry for the little German sentence, couldn't deny it myself...)--Lefcant 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 19.37 (UTC)
The Dutch interface uses the imperative, but I think an infinitive would be also ok. SPQRobin 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 20.34 (UTC)
I thought it over - imperative when the computer expects something from the user, such as "enter password", infinitive if the user asks something of the computer, such as "go to page". Latin has also infinitive. AndreasJS 18. kesäkuuta 2007 kello 22.02 (UTC)