View source for Thread:Portal talk:Grc/Translations of actions like "delete" and "edit"
This page is for the discussion of interface translations into Ancient Greek.
I have a proposals to make:
- for ἔρανος (which means "joint meal" or even "picknick" (that way of contribution)) εἰσφορά.--Lefcant 1. June 2007 kello 01.01 (UTC)
I am not too sure. My dictionary (Liddell and Scott's Greek-English) has as one of its definitions of ἔρανος "any contribution" (citing a use of ἔρανον φέρειν in Demosthenes "to contribute freely"), and another definition "a kindness, service, favour". Woodhouse suggests ἔρανος as a Greek translation of contribution generally, and implies that εἰσφορά has the idea of a financial contribution. These definitions of ἔρανος do seem to convey the idea of a wikipedia contribution, done freely for the good of the general community.
- Ok, I'm convinced. Another question: Why have you put the μου three times as an encliticon (διάλεκτός μου, ἐφορώμενά μου, ἔρανοί μου) and at αἱρέσεις the non enclitic ἐμοῦ? According to my greek grammar "After a paroxytonon the monosyllabic encliticon loses its tone, the disyllabic keeps it". Shouldn't it then be αἱρέσεις μου?--Lefcant 1. June 2007 kello 20.00 (UTC)
- Probably. I don't usually use accents in Greek, so there is a good chance that I was wrong :-) If you see any mistakes in my diacritics, don't hesitate to correct them! LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 1. June 2007 kello 21.39 (UTC)
This was always going to be a problem, espaecially as the Greek ἤλεκτρον already means something different. Η-ἀγγελια is an obvious last resort. αὐτομάτη might just be able to get across the idea of electronic, or we could neologise and make ἤλεκτρονίκη. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 1. June 2007 kello 22.04 (UTC)
- I am in favour of the neologism, we want it to be understandable in spite of some inaccuracies. ἠλεκτρικός -ή -όν is elektric but E-mail is electronic; would ἠλεκτρονικός > ἠλεκτρονική ἀγγελία as in modern greek fit? Neoligisms are usually taken from there. If we need more there is already the site Akropolis world news where news from all over the world were published in ancient greek (now unfortunately stopped). Just click on "Modern vocabulary" --Lefcant 2. June 2007 kello 00.35 (UTC)
I shall ask Juan Coderch's opinion on this. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 2. June 2007 kello 01.00 (UTC)
- You know him? Is he well-known in Oxford?--Lefcant 2. June 2007 kello 01.04 (UTC)
- I was surprised when I saw his name on the website! I have met him, and I know some people whom he teaches. He is one of the main teachers of Greek at the University. Hopefully he will not be too busy marking exams (students are doing their finals at the moment), to give us some help. Alas, I think it's time I went to bed. Farewell :-) LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 2. June 2007 kello 01.16 (UTC)
Quick update: he suggests ἠλεκτρονίκη ἐπιστολή. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 2. June 2007 kello 09.41 (UTC)
- Sounds good an is fully understandable also for modern greeks but the accent should be on the η: ἠλεκτρονική ἐπιστολή. Would you add it like this? --Lefcant 2. June 2007 kello 14.52 (UTC)
Sysops and Bureaucrats
In the modern greek WP they are called Διαχειριστής συστήματος and Γραφειοκράτης; perhaps these two are more helpful for a reader... I don't know if someone will think of an administrator by reading γέρων... --Lefcant 3. June 2007 kello 21.40 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I am not sure that either of the modern terms would work in Ancient Greek. I personally think that comparing sysops to the gerousia and bureaucrats to the ephors is rather cute, and that it could work if we include a link on the main page to a list of Ancient Greek equivalents of wikipedia terminology (which will be necessary). LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 4. June 2007 kello 12.20 (UTC)
- Well, if we create such a page it's OK, I'm just thinking of the usability.-- Lefcant 4. June 2007 kello 22.58 (UTC)
I just saw that in the "Recent changes in grc" above the date is indicated as 2 Ἰούνιος 2007. In modern greek this is a genitive: 2 Ἰουνίου 2007. As this is taken from there, as I suppose, it should be similar, shouldn't it? So we'd have to change all months to the genitive form... Isn't there a way to make the system use the genitive forms that you've already completed? --Lefcant 3. June 2007 kello 19.33 (UTC)
I really would not know. SPQRobin might have an idea... LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 3. June 2007 kello 20.59 (UTC)
- I also don't know that.. SPQRobin 4. June 2007 kello 15.17 (UTC)
- It is possible to change the date format to use genitive forms. — Nike 4. June 2007 kello 15.29 (UTC)
- Great, could you do it?--Lefcant 4. June 2007 kello 17.07 (UTC)
- Well, now they look correct to me. A passing remark, Leigh: you seem to use quite often the double article for adjectives (αἱ μεταβολαί αἱ νέαι, οἱ σύνδεσμοι οἱ ἄλλοι) is there a special reason, why this would be preferable? As this exists in modern greek too, I know that it emphasizes the adjective (or further the attribute), but is that necessary? Shouldn't we standardise it?--Lefcant 4. June 2007 kello 21.07 (UTC)
In ancient Greek there is not much difference between, say, ὁ καλος δουλος and ὁ δουλος ὁ καλος. As far as I know the latter might sometimes mean "the slave, the one who is good", a slight contrast with the other slaves, whilst the first would simply mean "the good slave". But most of my grammars suggest that the distiction is very minor. I usually do it out of habit and for aesthetic reasons. Come to think about it, there might be a cause for writing οἱ σύνδεσμοι οἱ ἄλλοι to contrast it with internal links, but for the most part, these two uses of the adjective are interchangeable and largely a matter of taste. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 5. June 2007 kello 12.34 (UTC)
Some important buttons rest to be translated, here some suggestions:
- Show preview: Δεικνύναι προεπισκόπησιν/προεπισκοπήν?
- This is a minor edit: μικρὴ μεταβολὴ (μόνον)
- Summary: σύλληψις/κεφαλαίωσις/σύνοψις
- User is blocked: Ὁ χρώμενος ἀποκλεισμένος ἐστίν
- Horizontal line (use sparingly): Ὁμαλὴ γραμμή (χρῆσθαι φειδωλῶς/μετὰ φειδωλίας)
--Lefcant 5. June 2007 kello 16.19 (UTC)
- For "show preview", I would be wary about translating preview with a noun. Neither of those words are in my dictionary, and a google search produced nothing. The verb προεπισκοπέω is attested, but only for Strabo and Lucian, who are rather later than our target period of Greek. We may have to settle for either Δεικνύναι τὸ προεπισκοπεῖν or use some long winded formation with προ- (τὸ πρὸ τῆς μεταβολῆς?)
- μικρὴ μεταβολή is fine.
- Summary would probably be κεφάλαιον, that is what my dictionary says at any rate.
- For "user is blocked", can we use ἀποκλεισμένος ὁ χρώμενος, maybe with a ὅδε or οὗτος? ἐστίν is not really necessary here (my prose comp. tutor says that ἐστίν should be used "with a sense of regret/failure")
- For horizontal line: ὀβελός, see here. For use sparingly, perhaps μὴ λίαν χρῶ(χρῆσθε)? -ως adverbs are not really used very often in Greek. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 5. June 2007 kello 19.16 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I meant προεπισκόπησιν but that probably doesn't exist either... What about just leaving the δεικνύναι out and writing προεπισκοπεῖν?
- Well my dictionary translates κεφάλαιον as "the principal thing", "the result", "the capital". As it is a German-Ancient Greek dictionary I looked up the word that is used in the german WP for summary and it says clearly συναίρεσις and κεφαλαίωσις. I'd really stick on them. Where did you look it up?
- ἀποκλεισμένος οὗτος ὁ χρώμενος would that fit? (edit: oh I see it should be ἀποκεκλεισμένος perfect participle)
- OK, Perseus convinces me: ὀβελός (μὴ λίαν(or ἄγαν?) χρῆσθε) (what form should χρῶ be?)
(edit: couldn't we just write εὐθεῖα γραμμή for a straight line to have involved the "line"? I'd prefer that...)
--Lefcant 5. June 2007 kello 22.12 (UTC)
- The verb on its own for preview should be just fine, especially as Greek is such a verbal language.
- I looked up κεφάλαιον in Liddell & Scott's, (which is on Perseus), and it suggests that one meaning of it is along the lines of "the main point of the matter", citing uses in Thucydides and Xenophon, who are obviously authorities on Greek whom I think we should try to emulate. If your dictionary cites authors, could you tell me which Greek writers used those words? It could be that yours documents Greek over a wider period than mine.
Perhaps ὅδε would fit better than οὗτοςYour suggestion is better the demonstrative pronoun is not necessary. And yes, perfect tense since the user is in a current state arriving from a previous action.
- εὐθεῖα γραμμή might work, but if ὀβελός conveys the meaning surely one word is better than two, especially since we have so many long phrases already (
mostall of them created by me ;-) Since the word was used by Aristarchus (writing in a later period than I would prefer, but needs must...) to mean a straight line written (drawn?) to show that something was wrong, it seems perfect. Unless it meant more "underline" (can one use that as a noun? Well, I just did!), in which case it could be used there. Does anyone here know anything about Hellenistic punctuation?
By the way, I am trying to get some people who have rather better Greek than I have involved in the project, so perhaps some more light will be shed on these matters in the future...LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 6. June 2007 kello 18.35 (UTC)
- Ok you are probably right, but if I came in as a new user in the future ancient greek wikipedia I wouldn't understand what ὀβελός is (whereas εὐθεῖα γραμμή...) nor would I take κεφάλαιον as "summary" (although I could guess it because of its position) but if this is all listed in the page with the main translations in English it's right. --Lefcant 6. June 2007 kello 23.07 (UTC)
Quick update. It is definately used this way in Thucydides, (Book 4 section 50 of his History of the Peloponnesian war). LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 10. June 2007 kello 11.14 (UTC)
- Hmm ok I looked it up here in the greek Wikisource. Seems to be right, but I'm a little confused why Perseus doesn't mention it then... --Lefcant 10. June 2007 kello 12.57 (UTC)
Well, the dictionary does not actually say the word "summary", but one of the translations of κεφαλαιον has the same basic meaning. Perseus only shows results when the dictioary uses the exact word for which one is searching; unfortunately, search software has yet to gain a concept of synonyms. And thanks for cleaning up my mistakes, I can't believe I wrote δεικνυναι οἱ ἐρανοι! LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 10. June 2007 kello 13.54 (UTC)
- You translated "differences" with "Τὰ διαφερόντες" wouldn't just διαφοραί be better?
- "Τὰ ἐνθάδε ἀγόντες" for "What links here" -ες is a masculine and feminine nouns' ending. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it rather Tὰ ἐνθάδε ἄγοντα?
- μαθήματα for mathematics is correct but has also other general meanings. Whereas ἡ μαθηματική is pricise; any objections to change it?--Lefcant 10. June 2007 kello 13.37 (UTC)
- διαφοραί could work, but abstract nouns like this are not used often in classical Greek; they tend to be more of a late 4th century/Hellenistic development. I think someone like Thucydides or Plato would be more likely to use a verb (well, participle here). I have been concentrating on this area of the language quite recently, and my prose teacher always tells us to use verbs or adjectives to translate abstract nouns.
- Yes, neuter is correct.
- I think Τὰ μαθηματικά. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 10. June 2007 kello 13.54 (UTC)
- Ok, it's obvious that I'm influenced by modern greek (that's also why I wrote μικρή...). I changed it to Tὰ διαφέροντα.--Lefcant 10. June 2007 kello 17.07 (UTC)
- Article = ἡ χρῆμα? I thought we had named it δέλτος? Or was this just "page"? Besides it's τὸ χρῆμα. "Content Page" in the german Wikipedia is not named differently from "Article" so this is OK but I don't like χρῆμα, it's too general, it can even mean "money" (which is also its meaning in modern greek) --Lefcant 10. June 2007 kello 22.39 (UTC)
I think that most texts should be in the imperative instead of the infinitive. Go should be translated ἵει and not ἱέναι etc., depending on the context. Please comment AndreasJS 18. June 2007 kello 19.18 (UTC)
- Well it was ἰέναι and the imperative of this would be ἴθι but the infinitive is just fine. (In der deutschen Wikipedia heißt es auch "anwenden" an dieser Stelle und nicht "wende an", das lässt sich problemlos aufs Altgriechische übertragen ;-) (Sorry for the little German sentence, couldn't deny it myself...)--Lefcant 18. June 2007 kello 19.37 (UTC)
- The Dutch interface uses the imperative, but I think an infinitive would be also ok. SPQRobin 18. June 2007 kello 20.34 (UTC)
- I thought it over - imperative when the computer expects something from the user, such as "enter password", infinitive if the user asks something of the computer, such as "go to page". Latin has also infinitive. AndreasJS 18. June 2007 kello 22.02 (UTC)
- The Dutch interface uses the imperative, but I think an infinitive would be also ok. SPQRobin 18. June 2007 kello 20.34 (UTC)
Coherence with Modern Greek
A minimum of coherence with the Modern Greek wikipedia would be desirable, unless the Ancient Greek words have an entirely different meaning. Evidently, ἄρθρον does not work for article.
I would suggest συνδέεσθαι = login and ἐγγράφεσθαι = register. AndreasJS 19. June 2007 kello 00.40 (UTC)
Wiki denied - interface still useful
REQUEST FOR NEW TRANLATIONS OF INTERFACE
WIKIPEDIA IN ANCIENT GREEK REQUEST TO EDITORS TO MAKE NEW TRANSLATIONS, BECAUSE IN THE LAST DAYS THE ACTIVITY ON THE TEST PAGE HAS REDUCED. PLEASE COLABORATE TO OUR PROJECT AND CONTINUE TRANSLATING THE INTERFACE.
- There is a discussion about it, with a passional defense of our proyect in the board of language subcommittee titled Latina Wikipedia closing and hellenic wikipedia opening that is currently continued in the list of wikimedia title Allow new wikis in extinct languages?. if you want to susbcribe to the list enter here. you can help providing good arguments to get a reconsideration
Let's continue the work!!!
currently there is a discussion in the wikimedia foundation forum, about to revert the restrictive current policy; for in the future newly to allow wikipedias in historical languages; linked to this, recently it has been rejected a proposal to delete our incubator. then, it is neccesary to continue the work in this incubator, when a future modification of policy happens, it will be already. remember that all the work won't be delete, it will remain saved.
500 most used Mediawiki messages
hello. we must effort to complete the translation of mediawiki messages, to ancient greek, specially of the 500 most used:
it is and important goal to succeed.
Sysops and Bureaucrats 2
Ἔφοροι & Γέροντες proposed by Leigh hasn't gained consensus so far. I propose Ἐπίτροποι "surveillants" (also in a more modern context "commissioners") & Γραφειοκράται (see Latin Magistratus "magistrates, officers" & Grapheocratae).
--Omnipaedista 09:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Congratulations! You have passed the threshold for inclusion in FreeCol and the translations will be committed from now on. – Nike 15:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
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No! this is highly language/culture-dependant.
In French for example, the (impersonal) infinitives are highly prefered to the (personal) imperatives, and more formal (more polite: people don't appreciate personal orders, we only want to *suggest* them possible actions). And this consideration is not just for Wikipedia and social networks (Even Facebook and Twitter are using infinitives, as well as almost all online shops).
But these imperatives are also using a tone similar to commercial advertizing, that want to personalize their messages directly to the consumers...
Imperatives would be acceptable in other contexts such as online games (that favor a highly personal experience), but only during game play.
In support forums, the tone is adapted whever this is a personal question or assistance request (use imperatives when explaining guidelines for immediate problem resolution, or conditionals like "should" if alternatives are left to the user or not everything is known) or a general consideration (such as generic online documentation meant for all or intended to an open group of people).
Each time you target more than one people, you should use infinitives (so user interfaces uses infinitives everywhere in all applications, OS'es and devices).