Difference between revisions of "Support"

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== Localized namespace names ==
 
== Localized namespace names ==
Is'nt localized namespace names part of interface translation? ([http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=MediaWiki:Confirmrecreate/lv&curid=309023&diff=422197&oldid=421067]). (can't these be used in translated messages?) -[[user:yyy|yyy]] 07:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
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Isn't localized namespace names part of interface translation? ([http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=MediaWiki:Confirmrecreate/lv&curid=309023&diff=422197&oldid=421067]). (can't these be used in translated messages?) -[[user:yyy|yyy]] 07:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
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: I try to explain this in a simple way: Interface messages need to be reusable or general. This means that for example links need to work even if you are using Latvian interface in the English Wikipedia. This means we have to reference namespaces in a way that works in every wiki in every language. Link description text is used to hide this information from the user. Also, core namespaces can be translated using [[Special:Magic]]. – [[User:Nike|Nike]] 09:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
   
 
== Automatic deletion of identical MediaWiki messages on local qu Wikipedia by bot? ==
 
== Automatic deletion of identical MediaWiki messages on local qu Wikipedia by bot? ==

Revision as of 09:07, 30 May 2008

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{{SITENAME}} in messages

Depending on the site name it can be one of several genders and singular or plural. Also, after looking at the messages, I see that it appears variously as nominative, accusative and genitive (in my locale). The definite article that goes with it changes in each case. So I wonder what to do about this. So far, each site has had to add their own localizations for these messages. But it would be great if there were a way to make it all happen here. My apologies if this has been dicussed before but I didn't know where else to look. Thanks. -- Απεργός 05:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, do you mean that we should make a list of forms for all sitenames here or generate them automatically? – Nike 20:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I have seen {{SITENAME}} combined with {{GRAMMAR ...}} somewhere. Full declension, singular and plural. Maybe that's what is being asked for? The problem is, then, of course, that installations will have to code their individual GRAMMAR list according to their actual site name. Even worse, in many languages, you would as well have to deal with prepositions (or the equivalent), and with other inflections, which may become excessively complicated, and is most certainly impossible to achieve in a generalized language-independent form or way. --Purodha 04:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

More messages likely needing {{PLURAL:...}}

See:

I believe, all of them should be using {{PLURAL:...}}. --Purodha Blissenbach 08:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Table pager limit ("Show $1 items per page") should use PLURAL

Correct form is Show $1 {{PLURAL:$1|item|items}} per page. --EugeneZelenko 14:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

$1 is a limit selector dropdown, so there is no way to know the actual number. – Nike 09:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Would it be an improvement to reword this to Number of items to show per page: $1? Lloffiwr 21:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Throttled-mailpassword should use PLURAL

For both occurrences of $1. --EugeneZelenko 14:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Passwordtooshort should use PLURAL

This messages should use PLURAL. --EugeneZelenko 14:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Editbox layout problem with bidi-Gadget

The Gadget "Buttons to force text direction of text area." creates the same problem for me that is described in bug 9902 - there should be a line wrap allowed, between the "bidi=override" button, and the edit box's <textarea>.

I tried to find the place to fix it but I was unsuccessfull. It is likely hidden in some javascript. A good chance could be imho, to insert just another item - a simple space - at the same plece as the buttons, once the last button has been inserted in MediaWiki:Gadget-bidibuttons.js, but I do not know well enough how that is done to take the risk to experiment. --Purodha Blissenbach 10:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Localisation guideline for unaltered texts

Localisation guidelines does not specify whether or not to translate texts that are not changed from the fallback language. Should we better do so, or shall we better leave them alone? Or does the best choice depend on something, e.g. not translate more technical stuff like "project:Babel" or accesskey-x-y-z, and do translate real language texts since we are not sure whether or not the fallback translation may be changed to something we cannot use any more? --Purodha Blissenbach 11:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Usually a fallback is a way to make things slightly less inconvenient if there is no full localisation for a certain language. All fallbacks lead to English if there is no alternative in the fall back chain. My opinion is that all non-optional messages should have a localisation in any language. There are a few exceptions, f.e. if a whole language code falls back (zh->zh-hans, als->gsw), in which case there should be no localisations at all, and in the case of de-formal, where only affected messages are to be localised. Siebrand 13:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Duplicatesoffile and MediaWiki:Redirectstofile should use PLURAL

There are quite possible cases with single duplicate or single redirect. --EugeneZelenko 14:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Purodha Blissenbach 11:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Parameter deficiency regarding date/time.

There is no way to make MediaWiki:Rcnote/ksh a well formed sentence without separating date and time into two parameters, which are currently aggregated into $3 alone. I tried, but I could not get beyond what is likely seen as "bad computerized style". The same is true for likely almost all similar messages, that have date and time glued together in one parameter. I remember that I occasionally filed bugs in Mediazilla, when detecting one, which were usually honored. Should I continue doing that individually? Alternatively, I could look up how theses splits were made in the past, and just make more of them in the source code, if I can. Yet I am uncertain, whether or not, and if so, which, coordination would be needed for such changes. I do not want to break anything. --Purodha Blissenbach 10:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

What, when PLURAL is'nt really needed?

We have some words, for which the one, many, and zero cases grammar forms match, so that PLURAL was not really needed. Yet the automated check will find it missing. What should we do? --Purodha Blissenbach 11:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You can use one form to suppress the warning, if those cases are the minority. – Nike 08:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

syntaxhighlight-desc

I suggest that MediaWiki:syntaxhighlight-desc use a parameter for the external URL. --Purodha Blissenbach 11:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization

Both the originals of MediaWiki:maintenance-failed and MediaWiki:maintenance-deleted are written all-caps. I believe that, I read in the W3C guidelines to web site creation that, we should not use all-caps or spaced-type or lower-case-against-orthographic-rules, or the like, but rather let CSS take care of such formatting issues. Would that not apply in this case, too? If the case is not to be part of some general CSS, it can easily be set locally using <span style="text-transform:uppercase"> ...some text... </span> . --Purodha Blissenbach 13:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In theory yes, in practise it is seldom done. – Nike 08:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

show message names

In the old Betawiki, we had a mode where we could see the message IDs (names) instead of the message themselves. If I recall that right, it was accessed using ?uselang=qzz or something the like. It seems to have vanished. As a newcomer, I found that a very helpful feature in finding out affirmatively, which message is shown where. Can we have it back? If that needs programming, let me know, I may have fun doing it. Or did I simply forget the right "language code"? --Purodha Blissenbach 16:28, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Just played around a bit cause of your post here, and I have to say: using uselang=qqq is really fun! ;-) --Slomox 16:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't aware that it existed before, but I have suggested adding it a few times. It would be very handy to have indeed. I would be happy to do it manually if there is no other way. Jon Harald Søby 17:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
There are imho two ways to do it:
  1. manually, or scripted, populate MediaWiki:*/qqz with the message names.
  2. add qqz to Names.php, and have special MessagesQqz.php handler return inputted names 1:1 unaltered (or so)
While the 2nd is likely more flexible, and versatile, letting a bot do the 1st once is likely only a matter of <<1 hour of preparation (get all names from the MediaWiki namespace of Betawiki, throw away those already having a "/" inside, create an upload file for pywikipediabots pagefromfile.py from the remaining ones, or an importable XML file, and have it uploaded)
I prefer the 2nd, since it would be beneficial for all installations, provided Brion accepts it :-)
Nevertheless, I shall quickly whip up a script creating said upload file. Depending on my state of tiredness, I'll be back with it before midnight, or tomorrow morning. --Purodha Blissenbach 20:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record: I do not want a bot to create 5000 or so pages with message names. It's useless. So please figure it out in code somehow. Siebrand 20:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I came to the same point, especially since it it not as easy as I thought to collect all the MediaWiki:* names from arbitrary extensions which are not installed. Plus such a task would have to be performed regularly, which is just too expensive. So I'm trying to do it programmatically, now. --Purodha Blissenbach 23:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
A request I have is for such a "language" to also include $1 $2 $3, clearly separated (so it's easy to see what's what). But that may make things more difficult for you … Jon Harald Søby 14:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Something like this? – Nike 16:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, that is approximately what I had in memory. I only forgot ?uselang=debug . And the {parameters} apparently describing message properties, or processing style somehow, are new to me. --Purodha Blissenbach 00:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Messages referencing messages

MediaWiki:Watchlistedit-normal-explain says: Titles on your watchlist are shown below. To remove a title, check the box next to it, and click Remove Titles. You can also edit the raw list.

It references the text of MediaWiki:Watchlistedit-normal-submit, which is Remove Titles. But it does this in plain text, so when MediaWiki:Watchlistedit-normal-submit will be changed, MediaWiki:Watchlistedit-normal-explain won't any longer match that text, until it will be updated too. Is there any way to include the message directly? Something similar to {{msg:MediaWiki:Watchlistedit-normal-submit}}, which does work for the project language, but not for other languages? --Slomox 14:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Do you mean: "{{int:Watchlistedit-normal-explain}}"? --Purodha Blissenbach 05:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It works, so I guess, it was what I meant ;-) I hope it was correct to use it in MediaWiki:Watchlistedit-normal-explain/nds. --Slomox 13:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Oldreviewedpages-quality/eo

I was wondering, for MediaWiki:Oldreviewedpages-quality/eo does "quality" here mean the noun, as in "This Wiki has several good qualities..." or an adjective? "This is a quality article." I was assuming it meant the noun, because (based on my feeble understanding of some other languages) other wikis seemed to assume the noun. -- Yekrats 16:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's short for 'quality version' (compare to 'good article/featured article'). There is very little documentation on this quite important extension. There is also a lot of vague English terminology in it (sighted, etc.). Personally I am very unhappy with it. Nothing more I can do. This particular extension has frustrated me enough to take it out of Betawiki for a month or so. I'm done with it and do hope others pick up on it. Siebrand 19:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

LanguageNames

Is LanguageNames an official extension? The link on Special:Version links to a page not mentioning it. Is the extension usable for other projects? --Slomox 23:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Define official. It is an extension from the MediaWiki extensions folder (cldr). The extension is usable for other projects, and can be used in conjunction with the extension Babel. We are using it here to localise language names. It basically contains a conversion of CLDR data and some parser functions. Siebrand 11:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It does not shows up in extensions list, in special:translate (or it has some hard-to-guess name). -yyy 12:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It's SVN name is CLDR. Siebrand 12:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Found it (now). It, however, contains only one message (description) (or i missasumed its purpose). -yyy 13:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
@Siebrand: I was asking, cause I could not find any page like mw:Extension:LanguageNames or mw:Extension:CLDR on the Mediawiki wiki.
@yyy: The language names are taken from the CLDR project, that's why there are no messages in special:translate (I too had to ask about it, some time ago ;-) ) --Slomox 13:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I had found the language name source, and since a while already, I am compiling lists of names in various languages to be added, for submission. Hopefully, they're responding quicker than the ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-3 maintainers, wo appear to me to hardly respond to their e-mail. --Purodha Blissenbach 05:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
That's absolutely great! Finally someone who actually contacts cldr maintainers for improvements. The Germans just went ahead and committed their translations to the extension, which is not the way to go. If you could forward these too to the appropriate persons, it would be great! – Nike 08:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Localization checks

  1. Can we have "!Fuzzy" messages in Translating:Localization checks, too?
  2. And message, which are untranslated because they were newly added?

I think it would be convenient, to have all in one place, which is a fine to-do-list.--Purodha Blissenbach 00:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Semantics of fuzzy messages are currently the same as untranslated (in the special page itself), so it wouldn't make any sense, since they are already listed together with untranslated messages and alone with show changes, if you want to look for easy things. We also don't have currently any concept of new and old messages or their age. – Nike 08:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Location of some messages

I wrote some documentation for MediaWiki:Nviews and MediaWiki:Createaccount-title. The abbreviated day names can be used by the #time parser function ("{{#time: D}}" expands to "Mon"). But that is an extension, I don't know if they are also used somewhere in core MediaWiki. /Lejonel 17:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for documentation. These abbreviated day name messages appears in Most often used messages in MediaWiki(i would like to know how these got there). -yyy 17:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
They got there through profiling message usage. You can read all about or linked from Translating:Group statistics. Siebrand 18:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Abbreviations obviously show high up because they are used in some popular date formats. – Nike 19:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Probably. But i have never ever seen them in interface. Also, these certainly are not in date formats, which can be selected in user preferences (neither in English, or Latvian). (can anyone provide a screenshot, where these messages shows up ?)(this could provide some context, which could be used to improve translation quality) -yyy 07:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
See yourself the formats. D is weekday and M is month abbreviation. – Nike 08:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
anyway, the message mediawiki:sun and so on are already deleted with the following entry:
  • 22:31, 2007 January 5 MediaWiki default (talk | contribs | block) deleted "MediaWiki:Sun" ‎ (No longer required) (restore)
  • and so on...
--Kaustubh 07:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
That doesn not relate to this. – Nike 08:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Boardvote-desc, MediaWiki:Boardvote closed

I suggest that MediaWiki:Boardvote-desc and MediaWiki:Boardvote closed be altered to use a variable $1 for the link target so as to avoid re-editing this message in all languages for each voting. --Purodha Blissenbach 20:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

BoardVote has got a new developer, if I'm correct. If possible try to contact him. There is so much to fix in extension that I can't possibly fix them all in the time I have spare. – Nike 08:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Add link to SUL username collisions detector to MediaWiki:Centralauth-complete-text

I suggest a little addition to MediaWiki:Centralauth-complete-text : link to the SUL username collisions detector too. It will help users make preliminary checks of conflicting account ownership, hence require preemptive usurpations BEFORE they proceed with SUL. This will help decrease the panic among users, the subsequent requests on Meta for global account deletion and reduce problems due to bug 13507 and bug 14330. Spiritia 05:16, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I feel adding links to external services is umm controversial, even if they are on the toolserver. Anyway, this is out of scope of i18n, so I ask you or someone to take this to the extension developers trough bugzilla or other means. – Nike 09:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Contributions

MediaWiki:Contributions has conflicting usages, see bug 13449 (:and vote for it to be fixed:) --Purodha Blissenbach 05:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I can try to look at this in few days, if nobody gets first. – Nike 09:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Localized namespace names

Isn't localized namespace names part of interface translation? ([1]). (can't these be used in translated messages?) -yyy 07:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I try to explain this in a simple way: Interface messages need to be reusable or general. This means that for example links need to work even if you are using Latvian interface in the English Wikipedia. This means we have to reference namespaces in a way that works in every wiki in every language. Link description text is used to hide this information from the user. Also, core namespaces can be translated using Special:Magic. – Nike 09:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Automatic deletion of identical MediaWiki messages on local qu Wikipedia by bot?

Hello, there are still a large number of messages on http://qu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Allmessages identical with the those translated on betawiki and provided by the wiki software. I'd like to have them delected automatically by bot (of course the identical messages only, NOT the 10 or 15 with special wikipedia text), but I would need some help. -- AlimanRuna 08:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Fallback language in user preferences

I'd like to change the fallback language individually. At the moment I have a strange mixture of Quechua, Spanish and English (e.g. Spanish language names - btw, how can I change them to Quechua?) on betawiki. How can I change this? I think it would be useful to have this possibility generally in the user preferences on every wiki, which means the wiki software should be adopted that way. -- AlimanRuna 08:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)