View source for Thread:Support/Translating to the same language but different script/reply (4)

From translatewiki.net
Jump to navigation Jump to search
NoteProblems? Questions? Suggestions? Write your message below. — See also the FAQ or try to catch us in IRC.

Your request has been forgotten? Feel free to post a reply to bump the thread to the top. Very old threads have been archived.
(The thread summarization feature is broken, see: Phab:T245109)

First page
First page
Last page
Last page

Two typos in

"This tag provides allows you to embedd a video."

Change to

"This tag allows you to embed a video."
Verdy p (talk)01:26, 11 March 2021

Done Done with Gerrit:670798 pending review.

Raymond11:30, 11 March 2021

@Raymond: You forgot the first typo signaled above (doubled d in "embedd" ==> "embed") in this Gerrit patch

And I signaled it as soon as you submitted this for review on Gerrit, which was unfortunately accepted and closed during its review, without first looking at this message thread (linked in the Gerrit patch description) to see this comment.

Note that I cannot connect to Gerrit, due to a long-standing bug of the Gerrit site (that does not recognize my account name with its underscore/space and refuses to create another account with another account name but with the same owner email), so it's impossible for me to make any change or comment in Wikimedia Gerrit, and you'll need a second patch in Gerrit to fix this.

Verdy p (talk)16:51, 11 March 2021

Follow up patch Gerrit:672733 pending review.

Raymond14:50, 16 March 2021
 
 
 

What is the "{nav `} key on your keyboard" ? It seems to be a for very specific keyboard layout and not accessible at all, unless this is actuelly a template replaced by an actual key name. If this is a template, it should better be a variable placeholder that will be tuned specifically for locales or according to user preferences in application settings.

Verdy p (talk)07:54, 16 March 2021

Obsuser and his translations

Can someone block User:Obsuser? He's edit warring, behaves stubbornly, does not respect the agreements made between Serbian translators regarding translations, and translates too literally. For example, the changes he has made in this edit only make it difficult to understand the text. He translated "Intended blockee" as "Намењено да се блокира" (Intended to block) -- which is very unclear in general, let alone in the Serbian standard language. The previous translation was "Блокирани корисник" (Blocked user) -- which was a very natural option. Due to the same pattern of behavior, he was blocked on Serbian Wikipedia permanently more than a year ago. User:Kizule can confirm this since his mother tongue is also Serbian. Thanks in advance!

BadDog (talk)19:10, 20 October 2020

I can confirm all things which BadDog said. He (Obsuser) still doesn't understand what teamwork means.

Kizule (talk)20:05, 20 October 2020

Bump. He is like an "energy vampire" who works only on his own and consumes the energy of us who are trying to contribute.

He persistently wants to translate literally, on incomprehensible way.

And, my god, without consulting with someone else.

Kizule (talk)16:15, 25 October 2020

I only see one recent thread on their talk page. Was it about this topic?

Nike (talk)09:15, 30 November 2020

Partially. But neither the first nor the last, for sure.

Kizule (talk)11:59, 20 December 2020

Hi Nike, I would like to know the status of this request. His behavior has not changed, plus he got a global lock on all WMF projects (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Obsuser).

The most recent example of his circus is the nonsense machine translation: https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=MediaWiki:Currentrev-asof/sr-ec&diff=9929591&oldid=9929372

He translates literally, unnaturally and unreasonably.

And in our case, it is necessary to translate so that the translation is in the spirit of the language into which it is translated, as well as that the translation coincides as much as possible with the original.

Kizule (talk)21:26, 11 March 2021
 
 
 
 
 

Optional message

Edited by another user.
Last edit: 18:01, 3 March 2021

Could you please mark this message optional?

Joseph (talk)10:08, 28 February 2021

Thanks

See: 668350: Add optional message for Toolhub - Backend | https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/translatewiki/+/668350

Regards,

Abijeet Patro (talk)09:40, 4 March 2021

Thank you.

Joseph (talk)16:57, 4 March 2021

Related change is now deployed

Regards,

Abijeet Patro (talk)11:55, 8 March 2021
 
 
 

Raw HTML permission

Joseph (talk)20:29, 19 February 2021

These resources are part of the raw HTML content of the Visual Editor, which is NOT parsed by Mediawiki to be safe (this is not visible here even if they all look safe in the source, but one could add unsafe HTML and.javascript code that could harm the wiki or the user privacy as soon as translations are uploaded from Translatewiki.net to these wikis). For this reason, you can just propose translations, and submit a ticket to have them integrated by an admin (not jsut a translation admin on this wiki, but an admin of the VisualEditor project). Use the contact link

In my opinion, such resources should still be translatable here, and it's up to the VisualEditor team to import them and scan their safety, before putting them in their source repository and deploying them with Mediawiki updates. on all other wikis.

Or they could have made these translations behave like MediaWiki content (i.e. just restricting unsafe HTML elements (like script, embed, object, iframe, style, meta, a, or other multimedia elements...) and attributes (like on*="..." eventhandlers), or unsupported HTML elements (even if they are safe like thead, tbody, tfoot), but not portable across all target HTML versions (and other rendering engines like PDF), and all browsers (including mobile, or limited smartTV browsers that are not necessarily using HTML5 or that require some browser specific-tricks), all these being possible targets that Mediawiki supports with its parser.

Verdy p (talk)16:54, 7 March 2021

Thanks for the response , I'll contact with them.

Joseph (talk)17:24, 7 March 2021

Verdy p is right for the time until a better solution feel free to post your translations here I and would be happy to add them.

Raymond18:32, 7 March 2021
 
 
 

direct links, tools, teleport or something to accurate localization of items in translating process?

what i mean is, is there any way to localize exact page/wiki/ that i am currently translating in the tool? it is clear that when i want to translate a content of a page i just click translate page and its fine. but we have here different tools and extensions and applications where it would be useful to see source. i understand that if i am translating external application i have to download it and run it in chosen language to see if my translations are correct. but for example i am traslating "wikimedia portals" message group and because of the grammar complexity of my language it would be very useful to know where exactly each message is shown (as for example the message "read wikipedia in your laguage" is shown at the wikipedia home page, but how do i know that this message is from/for that page?)

yardom78 (talk)11:48, 5 March 2021

change my username, please

could someone change my username to: yardom78 thank you very much in advance

jarmi (talk)06:18, 5 March 2021

Done Done

Regards,

Abijeet Patro (talk)10:00, 5 March 2021
 

Request for Translators permission

Hello, I created my account several years ago but have never really used it. I do not have permission to edit translations. Below the edit box it saya You need translation rights to translate messages. Get permission, but the linked page does not explain what to do apart from “wait for approval”. Did I misunderstand something, or has my old account somehow “decayed”?

C960657 (talk)15:19, 12 February 2021

Hello C960657,

I've added you to the translator group, which should give you permission to translate. Happy translating!

Regards,

Abijeet Patro (talk)11:42, 4 March 2021
 

rmy change the name of the main page

"This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Established main page translations cannot be changed directly as it would disrupt wikis using the old translation. You can request changes in Support. "

Can a admin change the translation for main page from "गाहाइ बिलाइ" to "Sherutni patrin". All Vlax Romani Wikipedia is written in latin characters there is no reason the main page would be different.

Adehertogh (talk)08:47, 2 March 2021

Done Done

Regards,

Abijeet Patro (talk)09:57, 4 March 2021
 

Remove some accidental creations

Hello,

I just have created several documentation pages (/qqq) believing I was translating into French language. I have now tagged them with {{delete}}, can you delete them please?

Sorry for my mistake.

Pols12 (talk)15:50, 1 March 2021

Done Done

Raymond08:14, 3 March 2021
 

Contributions by User:Alefar

This user was blocked a month ago but most of their contributions haven't been deleted: https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Contributions/Alefar&offset=20201223113849&target=Alefar

They mostly translated English messages to "British English" by converting them to ALL CAPS. I manually reverted a few, but those should probably be deleted as well as they are identical to their English counterparts.

Ed g2s (talk)15:30, 21 January 2021

I will do it for MediaWiki and extensions in the next few days. A bit of manual work ...

Update:

All other deletions are to be done in non-Gerrit-repos

Raymond17:29, 24 January 2021
 

[rmc] Activate new language: Carpathian Romani - ''romaňi čhib''

Hi, I have the projekt to iniciate Carpathian romani wikipedia in the Incubator. Because this language still have no wikimedia projekt, I would like to start the translation on translatewiki for wikimedia's projekts. Language in writen in latin characters so LTR. Thanks

Adehertogh (talk)13:57, 26 November 2020

Hi!

I can probably add it.

Are there any other websites in this language?

Is it distinct from the language at https://rmy.wikipedia.org ?

Amir E. Aharoni (talk)12:31, 30 November 2020
  • Vlax Romani [rmy] is another Romani language, spoken more to the South (mainly in the Balkans and some Southern parts of Hungary and Southwest Romania or Moldavia, or Macedonia and Northern Greece). It is the most spoken Romani language. It is usually written in the Latin script (rarely with the Cyrillic script except in Macedonia, or the Greek script except in Northern Greece).
  • It is distinguished from Central Romani or Carpathian Romani [rmc], spoken more to the North (mainly in the Northern parts of Hungary, and in Slovakia, Poland and most parts of Bulgaria and Romania and Western Ukraine; its southernmost area is in Serbia). It is most frequently written with the Latin script, but may be written with the Cyrillic script in Servia, Bulgaria and Ukraine.

It is not clear which Romani language is used in Wikipedia, it is very likely that it is effectively the Vlax variant as it is the most developed one with a written tradition.

Central Romani however has suffered from the split of scripts used in its area. Today, both languages are in contact and probably mixed/confused in Hungary where this Indo-European language is very distant from the dominant Finno-Uralic language Hungarian (but with some better proximity with Slavic languages: Slovenian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Polish). Some contacts are also in Romania.

Central Romani (like all Romani languages) has made lots of borrowings (lexically and grammatically) from the domaininat languages they were in contact with, but with many more differences for Central Romani because there's big differences between domainant languages in its area; Central Romani has also been a lot influenced by Turkish (during the Ottoman Empire), but less than Vlax Romani.

However the main distinction between the two languages is their date of migrations: Central Romani is more ancient and borrowed more words from Persian, and some older borrowings from Armenian and Georgian, then later from Turkish, whereas Vlax Romani has been influenced by Turkish for a more longer time.

The two Romani languages have clear phonetic differences from their very different times of migrations (and with contacts with different old empires). Today however they are now a lot influenced by the dominant language. And in Hungary it is sufficiently dictinct to have kept its original distinction than everywhere else in the Latin-Romanic, Germanic, and Slavic areas.

Both languages were not written at all for centuries, and most efforts for writing them and develop an orthography first occured in the former Yugoslavia and in Bulgaria and Ukraine (during the USSR regime) only in the XXth century (after WW1 and the collapse of the former Ottoman Empire), so they were written in the Cyrillic script (for a short time). Today most efforts are using the Latin script (but there's still not been any attempt to develop a common orthography, orthographies being mostly driven by conventions used for the dominant languages): Hungarian and Polish use very different systems for the Latin script, so do the orthographies of Central Romani.

For Vlax Romani it is simpler. because there's some good degree of agreement between Croatian, Slovenian, Latin-Serbian, Slovakian, along with German and Italian during the former Austro-Hungarian empire (Macedonian and Albanian or Turkish did not contribute a lot and there was a strong resistance with the former Turkish empire; Romani people have migrated a lot to escape the ruling of former empires when they were too much brutal against minorities, and as their languages were no written, the tradition were kept orally and Romanis have always been very protectful for their oral culture and keeping united; this is still true today in every country where they live now, in well-defined communities but without clear borders).

So Central Romani / Carpathian Romani (rmc] still has no real support in Wikipedia like Vlax Romani. Its development as a written language is very recent, since the democratisation of Eastern Europe and notably in Romania at end of the 1990's. Vlax Romani was less threatened since longer time in Italy, Switzerland, France and Spain, along the Mediterranean Sea coasts where Vlax Romani people were constantly relocating (and in Germany and Austria only after WW2, some now being travelling as well into Egypt and even in America).

Getting access to litteracy has been long for all Romanis, and it is still difficult for them to get good education in schools not well prepared to receive people constant travelling across countries. However the internet and mobile networks are changing things radically for them: they can now communicate more easily and get some support internationally to preserve their culture in the written form.

Given all this, [rmc] merits its own development, distinctly from Vlax Romani [rmy]. However [rmc] may need to be supported in two scripts: Latin and Cyrillic (for use in Bulgaria, and possibly Ukraine). For religious use however the Latin script is favored (most Romanis are fervent Roman Catholic today, rather than Orthodox Christians, and the Bible has been the best written reference for them, beside oral celebrations).

Verdy p (talk)03:59, 1 December 2020

I don't have such linguistic knowledge as Verdy p, but working and communicating with Romanis from Slovakia, I can tell that they do not understand vlax romani. An other important point is the recent strong influence of the majority language in the romani language which of course differs from every country. In Slovakia and Czechia, romani use a Czechoslovak standardized writing which is different from the international one, unknown by romani except by few specialist. Spoken with several people, we choose to use the Czechoslovak standard to Start the wikipedia project to be understood by the largest northern central romani people and get the latest audience as possible. As reference there is the today's most complete Slovak-Romani dictionary (isbn 978-80-970999-0-9). But in the future, I would be good to support the two Latin scripts Czechoslovak and international.

Adehertogh (talk)21:50, 2 December 2020

Note that independantly of the ISO 639 classifgication of Romani languages, they are **independant** ofd their written forms which vary greatly: Traditionally these languages have been used orally, witgh strong enough differences in their oral forms to be encoded separately. Its classification however complicates a lot if you take the written forms, because they have *no* standard. As well the oral languages are constantly adapted locally with the dominant language with which they coexist, so much that there are many things borrowed unformally: these broowing may be lexical (and often persist in their tradition) but also grammatical (these are much less persistant, and the same people may change these depending on where they are or travel: so beside the "pure" language spoken by the community themselsves in their own families, when they travel and communicate with others, they constantly adpt their language to other speakers, including with the various gipsy or travellers communities). It should be noted that Romanis people are very frequently multilingual, because they travel a lot across countries (that's why it is often hard for them to adopt a nationality in Europe, and why they are also often discriminated, for not adopting any national standard; still there are some Romani communities that have been settled and have stopped migrating: these settled non-migrant communities are most common in South-Eastern Europe (notably in Romania and Bulgaria, but as well in some other places much further, such as Egypt and US, where they have more or less adopted some national standards, and then started to develop a strong local dialect very influenced by the local language such as English and Arabic).

In the United Kingdom, the Romani travelers have largely settled and their inherited familial language has then adopted the local English language so much that their language initially forming a very distinct dialect has become a minority language then threatened: Welsh Romani for example is now considered almost extinct: it iinitially adopted a local form based on the regional Welsh language, but as Welsh itself was threatened and remlaced by English, the Welsh Romani has disappeared, and there remains just English with some Romani terminology more or less adapted. Angloromani also has almost disappeared as well. Now Ropmani travelers may come to Britain, but most of them are Vlax Romani or Central Romani people which may cross the English Channel only for a few months, or for temporary familial or festive or religious events (they will often come from France, Belgium or Germany).

Anyway this topic is about [rmc] (Central/Carpathian Romani): yes it is very distinct from Vlax Romani [rmy]. But it's almost impossible to assert which language it is precisely in the writtern form. As well most Romani peopl use the Latin script, but this= is not universal: the Cyrillic and Greek scripts are used as well (there was an attempt done in Russia, Belarussia and Ukraine) to develop a standard based on Cyrillic, and sometimes iot may be used for a few Romani languages: this Cyrrilic form may have been used during the USSR, where Romani people were isolated from Western Europe, but now they are in contact again with other Romani people in Romania and Turkey, and now throughout the European Union where they can travel freely: the Cyrillic script is now almost no longer used except in Western Russia where there is a significant Romani community settled since long.

(I don't know if Romani people settled in Egypt use now the Arabic script; but it is very likely to occur if they have converted from Christianism to Islam).

Verdy p (talk)07:06, 3 December 2020
 

Trying again:

Are there any other websites in this language? :)

Amir E. Aharoni (talk)11:29, 4 December 2020
 
 
 
 
 

Change the ''Revertpage''-type messages

At the moment, if the edit is rolled back, the description contains a link to the member's page, which is not applicable to the edits of anonymous users. I ask to replace all links to the user page in these posts with links to the contribution page. MediaWiki:Revertpage-anon/en MediaWiki:Revertpage-nouser/en MediaWiki:Revertpage/en

Ivan-r (talk)20:07, 16 February 2021

An "anonymous" user *has* a user page: it is bound to its IP (so it's not really anonymous, just not associated to a account as the user was just not connected).

In this case, the link goes to a "User:IP address" page (works for IPv4 addresses in dotted decimal format, and IPv6 addresses in hexadecimal with colon-separated groups), which also has a "User talk:IP address". Such links will still be useful for other users to see what that user (or groups of users) did, to take action where needed (if this is a VPN or open proxy, the IP or a range of IP may be blocked, without affecting the possibility of users to logon if they suffer it and are not related to the issue caused by some other people using the same VPN or proxy or public Wifi hotspot, at the same time or in the past or future).

You should be aware that editing any wiki without being logged in with a user account is a privacy issue as the IP will becomely publicly visible and associated with their access time and topics of interests and their own statements/opinions in talk pages. Most wikis detail this. Some wikis do not allow any IP user and require all their users to be logged in to modify anything, even if they permit a readonly access (which may remain publicly anonymous only in this case). Make a single edit while you are not logged in, and login later while doing the same similar actions will let anyone know who you are and will damage the privacvy of your user account. The same can happen if you loose the connection for any reason and continue editing while being known only by your IP.

Note also that strict anonymity does not exist or is not even legal in almost all countries! the site must keep an access log of IP+time for authorities, and archive those logs for some months or years (depending on the country where the site is hosted and legally registered). Such logs however are frequently parsed and used by sites (including by Wikimedia, for a few admins that have the "IPcheck users" and that are in contract with the Foundation to avoid disclising any information that is not strictly bound to the resolution of a legal or community-rule violation.

To enforce the legal restriction, many site will restrict access rights to IP-only users (notably those using an IP used by a anonymizing proxy or VPN, or a Tor exit node): users MUST then logon to avoid this issue.

As well users may have several accounts with distinct identities even if they run them in the same IP. As well there may be multiple users on the same shared IP (in the same company or school for example, or those using a public Wifi hotspot like a restaurant): here again, users are strongly encouraged to logon with their own account, ans so their IP will no longer be exposed in their edits.

Verdy p (talk)21:12, 16 February 2021

It's all empty water which is not related to the query.

Ivan-r (talk)18:19, 18 February 2021
 
 

please fix "seperate" -> "separate"

Verdy p (talk)19:53, 16 February 2021

Done Done Patch submitted: Gerrit:664724.

Raymond07:15, 17 February 2021
 

L10n-bot does not export some Pywikibot translations

Hi all. Yesterday, I made some changes to the Pywikibot translations (ar, ary and arz languages). Today, L10n-bot only exported the ar translations but not the ary, arz ones. Specifically, it didn't export Pywikibot:Redirect-broken-redirect-template/arz and Pywikibot:Redirect-broken-redirect-template/ary. @MarcoAurelio: suggested that this may be due to a configuration issue. So, could someone take a look at this issue, please? Thank you.

Meno25 (talk)17:58, 5 October 2020

Only special thing I see is that these are optional messages and the only ones in that language for that group.

Nike (talk)19:12, 5 October 2020
 

Spanish translation pronouns

Will the page generally use the "tu" or "Usted" pronoun in translations? I would like to be consistent.

JamesB (talk)20:38, 13 February 2021

May be there's a "-formal" or "-informal" variant for Spanish, just like there are in German or Dutch (if so the absence of the selected variant means the opposite). This is something to ask on Spanish Wikimedia sites. In most languages the formal variant id the default (and even preferred for many other non-Wikimedia sites, so be careful about this and don't change this unilaterally with prior talks, and use the most frequent choice, notably those in the "Core" MediaWiki messages which have already been vetted since long for Spanish)

Verdy p (talk)21:07, 14 February 2021
 

Error in https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=MediaWiki:Externaldata-no-file-in-directory/en

Hi, I think it should be:


Directory $1 does not have file $2.


Second parameter is missing from original source.

SemanticPioneer (talk)00:06, 14 February 2021

Thank you for the report. Patch Gerrit:664055 submitted, waiting for review.

Raymond12:19, 14 February 2021
 

Some Turkish users use Google Translate

Hello there,

Some Turkish users translate all translations with Google Translate without any editing. This causes a machine translation. Most of the translated content is incorrect. When these users translate all pages not translated into Turkish with Google, other Turkish users who know English do not edit the pages because they do not see the untranslated pages. Please block machine translation users indefinitely and delete all of their contributions. User:BaRaN6161 TURK and User:MuratTheTurkish use machine translate.

Hedda (talk)14:27, 10 January 2021

Baran and Murat have lots of translations (1st and 3rd in this page). Even if they frequently use automated translation, there may be decent translations as well. Deleting all contributions may not be the best. If there is a way to review contributions from a specific user, then we can review them. Currently, Special:Contributions page is not suitable because I cannot see original sentence from there.

Joseph (talk)16:03, 12 February 2021
 

Translating to the same language but different script

Hello! Tagalog is currently pretty well-translated, however, it is translated into the Latin script (the writing system I am now writing this on). I am requesting if it can also be translated into a different script, the Baybayin script. I first thought to add that as a new language but then Baybayin is not in ISO 639-3. However, I have seen a wiki that has translated a couple of pages into Baybayin here with the code tl-b, but it isn't part of translate.wiki's languages. So I am requesting so that I can officially translate pages into Baybayin. It's just like the Tagalog translations but written in Baybayin.

Yivan000 (talk)06:30, 8 February 2021

"tl-b" is not a valid BCP-47 code. Baybayin is also not a script but the native name of the alphabet, encoded in Unicode/ISO 10646 and with the script named... "Tagalog" with standard ISO 15924 code "Tlgl". See ISO 15924.

For BCP-47 (part of the standard used on the web for W3C protocols (like HTML, CSS, SVG) and in many programming languages and internationalization libraries, the script variant you want would be encoded [tl-Tglg]. Note that letter case in codes does not matter in BCP 47 (as well the hyphen "-" is not different from an underscore "_").

Note that the term "Tagalog" refers to several related languages in the Philippines: the modern Tagalog is named "Filipino" and written only with the Latin script. It should use the ISO 639-2 or ISO639-3 code "fil", but "tl" has been used from the older standard ISO 639-1 (which used 2-letter codes and grouped various languages, not always mutually intelligible). So "tl" is used for its most common variant, the modern language Filipino officialized in the Philippines, even if abroad, the language spoken by the community is still named "Tagalog", but even abroad, most readers and writers (including in the United States) used the Latin script, with the vocabulary from Fillipino (there are also some creolized variants mixed with English, or other languages like Spanish, Malay, Indonesian, and some Chinese languages, with important borrowings added now in Fillipino, but also in other languages of the Phillipines like Ilocano (standard code [ilo]).

The historic Tagalog language, as it was wrriten with the Baybayin alphabet remains used by a small minority. It is valid to do your request, but for [tl-Tglg]. See Portal:Tl and Portal:Ilo which gives the code of their variants (disabled for now) in the Tagalog script (Baybayin).

For historic reasons, non-BCP447 language codes are still present on this wiki for legacy codes still in use by Wikimedia wikis only. But they are limtied in scope to only existing Wikimedia wikis. Wikimedia has a long process since years to only accept codes conforming to BCP47; but translation in these languages are still done on this wiki using valid BCP47 codes with very few exceptions: migrating these legacy invalid codes is a very complex process which take years and it has complexified the management of language codes and internationalization on these Wikimedia wikis. We should no longer add any invalid BCP47 code and there's a strong policy even in Wikimedia about this (there's a "language comity" now working since years in Wikimedia, and all remaining legacy codes are in a "bug list"; we should avoid increasing this bug list due to the extensive work it requires to migrate them later.) This policy is visible as well in Wikimedia Incubator for requests for new languages. And there's NO code using 1-letter extension for variants (and I think there should never be one).

For extensions to ISO 639, BCP 47 is the valid model (even if ISO 639-1 has been kept, it remains historic and its 2-letter codes are kept for compatibility with the most widely used languages; ISO 639-2 was a mess that was fixed later in ISO 639-3; but BCP 47 preserves the compatibility by defining aliases and reclassifying the mess left in ISO 639-1/2). BCP 47 allowed extensions for 3-letter code variants after a base language but their list is now closed since the adoption of ISO 639-3. It allowed 2-letter or 3-digit extensions for region codes (also deprecated, but left for compatibility: ISO 639-3 is prefered now in BCP 47, and 2-letter codes only for the most important language or variant in a group, e.z .with Chinese which is actually a macrolanguage whose major variant is Mandarin, "cmn" in ISO 639-3, but mapped as the default variant for "zh" coming from ISO 639-1).

As well BCP 47 has including some "grandfathered codes" using 1-letter prefixes, they are no longer recommended and remapped to ISO 639-3.

So today the recommendation in BCP 47 is

  • a 3-letter base code from ISO 639-3, or 2-letter code from ISO 639-1/2 only for the most widely used language in a group
  • an optional 2-letter or 3-digit region extension code (deprecated, only useful after legacy 2-letter language codes; the prefered way is now to use ISO 639-3)
  • an optional 4-letter extension code from ISO 15924 for script

and nothing else, except codes for private use only which start with a "x-" prefix !

BCP 47 also includes other reserved extensions like "u-*" for Unicode locales. The prefix "b-" is reserved and must remain reserved.

It is very interesting to see the history of these language codifications.

Verdy p (talk)14:12, 8 February 2021

Yeah, I forgot to mention that the language code can be discussed, so tl-Tglg can be used. So, can we pursue that?

Yivan000 (talk)03:25, 9 February 2021

All is ok with [tl-Tglg], don't worry, if you have supporters and want to work with them to start developping that project, continue with it. But interesting questions are :

  • Does this language need separate wikis, or is it possible to develop and use a transliterator between Latin and Tagalog/Baybayin scripts?
  • Have you collected a set of usable and free fonts for showing that script?
  • Have you tested that script in a test wiki such as Wikimedia Incubator? (this test wiki, which could be for a Wikipedia Incubator, or a Wikisource section/category in the existing Tagalgo Wikisource, or in Tagalog Wikitionary can also be used to show the interest with participating contributors). The test wiki can be any existing wiki as long as its local community will want to accept locally to have text written in that script, or will want to develop a transliterator, which may finally be deployed).
  • Can an automated transliterator be used reliably for the Mediawiki UI? (If so, we d'ont need these translations, Mediawiki could provide it automatically, just like it was done for variants of Chinese, but with active involvements of qualified developers and many linguist experts available to fix the quirks, and the developement of a huge dictionnary of rules; this development was not complex however for the transliterator used in Serbian between Latin and Cyrillic, even if there were separate developments for Croatian or Serbian due to differences/preferences of vocabularies and some grammatical forms)
  • Are there projects outside Mediawiki-base wikis ? E.g. wikis using other engines, forums or communication tools, databases, where a transliterator is insufficient: this would require the addition even if this is not for Wikimedia projects supported here (e.g. you may want to translate the FreeCol game, that works in Linux or Windows). There are tons of free/opensource projects that could be hosted here to translate their ".po" files, even if these translations will finally be posted in another repository like GitHub (where translation of these files offers no facility at all)

Note: I have no opposition to your project. But you have to realize why you need it and what are the best alternatives. And as it is for the Tagalog/Filipino language, the needs should be discussed with an active Tagalog community to determine precisely what is needed. The need to start translating separately must come only if this is the only solution and a test should first be driven on a site to demonstrate what is already possible and what requires a separate translation: adding a separate translation will have a huge maintenance cost and will require an active community, you have to evaluate what will be the simplest alternative with the lowest efforts that can be maintained for long. If an automated solution can work, it will be more beneficial to this language variant as it will immediately gain active support from existing Tagalog users and existing and future contents in Tagalog, made instantly available in the other script, so that more Tagalog/Filipino/Ilocano-speaking users will be able to use or learn and revive the non-Latin script.

So your request about [tl-Tglg] or [ilo-Tglg] is valid. I support it only as a matter of opinion, but the support needed will be from active Tagalog/Filipino/Ilocano speakers, and you'll need to get support from some developers. It is important to show and develop an online testbed for that script.

Verdy p (talk)15:55, 9 February 2021

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:

The action you have requested is limited to users in the group: Users.


You can view and copy the source of this page.

Return to Thread:Support/Translating to the same language but different script/reply (4).

Yoiu probably know that the Baybayin script is more "defective" than the modern Latin script which has more distinctions (even if some Latin letters are allophones in some, but not all Philippines languages, such as ra vs. "da (allophones only in Tagalog, but not in other languages that uses/used the Baybayin, and today even need the distinctions: the historic allophony of ra and "da is less effective today, when so many people have been exposed to English or historically also to Spanish and Dutch, and still today to other Chinese and Malaysian languages; and also need and use many borrowed proper names)

For what I see, the Baybayin alphabet (unfortunately encoded in Unicode and ISO 15924 under the normative but too restrive name "Tagalog") is simple to support with a transliterator from Latin (but care will be needed for the ba/ra distinction even if it is allophonic in Tagalog language for some people while it fact it shows today a clear contrast, the allophony being only marked by the contextual mutation depending on surrounding vowels): in the Baybayin alphabet, allophones may or may not share the same glyph, an in my optinion they should have been encoded separately (using a variant code where needed if we want to make or drop the visual distinction of "ra", with the letter "da" encoded always without the distinction: an Unicode font renderer could easily make the proper choice of glyph for "ra" automatically if the language is known: in Tagalog/Filipino language the distinction would be removed so "ra" would use the same glyph as "da"; this would also facilitate the bijective conversion with the Latin script in transliterators, so immediately the Philippine languages could automatically get a rendering in the Baybayin script without needing any development of a separate content).

As well there are only 3 vowels A/I/U in Baybayin, when Philippine languages in the Latin script also use E/O as historic allophones, which are also more clearly distinguished today. The same solution would ease porting, using variant selectors for each of the 2 Baybayin vowels I/O to preserve the distinction alreaday present in the Latin script.

Note that Unicode has left one empty cell in the Unicode block, it was not for the Tagalog language itself, but other Phillipine languages using the Baybayin alphabet.

Note finally that Baybayin has several graphical traditions (at least 8 are documented for different languages): only one tradition for the Tagalog language was studied in Unicode. The presence of an unallocated slot in the encoded script is a clear indication that this space was reserved, pending further studies, so that the Baybayin script is still not completely encoded and was only encoded for one form of the Tagalog language (hence its unfortunate name given in the Unicode/ISO 10646 encoded block, which is normative and cannot be changed, just like the code "Tglg"). The English and French names shown in ISO 15924 however should be clearly changed to Baybayin, they are not under a stability rule

I think you should discuss theses issues with Unicode and send requests, so that Baybayion can be used more easily and transliterators with Latin can work reliably, while still preserving the distinctions needed for other languages than just one of the historic forms of Tagalog (before the recent creation of its modern official Filipino variant).

Verdy p (talk)16:52, 10 February 2021
 
 
 
 
 
First page
First page
Last page
Last page