unclear word order

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Revision as of 11 August 2015 at 14:34.
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unclear word order

With this word order it is not clear here if the persons created the fields ("Felder") or the curators ("Kuratoren"). Other changes are great. More precise:

Bearbeiten von Feldern ist nur den Personen erlaubt, die sie erstellt haben, und den Kuratoren
    Lib2know (talk)22:08, 3 August 2015

    Nur Kuratoren und Personen, die sie erstellt haben, dürfen Felder bearbeiten.

    Still formally ambiguous but sematically obvious.

      Purodha Blissenbach (talk)20:11, 5 August 2015

      Your solution is shorter, but moves the subject and main verbs to the very end of the sentence. Semantically it says now clearly: Only curators and persons, which created them (=the curators), are allowed to edit fields.

      What i don't understand: I made a suggestion and you made no point to criticise. So why don't you agree? But without hesitation you produce a different suggestion. Was there any mistake in my suggestion?

        Lib2know (talk)23:10, 5 August 2015
        Semantically it says now clearly: Only curators and persons, which created them (=the curators), are allowed to edit fields.

        No. It say so syntactically. But since that reading was semantically wrong, it is a valid German sentence.

        I do not understand that either - I likely only wrote my own translation down. Interesting.

        Your translation is a typical non-native try having several flaws.

        • Initial article not used but others - no, no. :-)
        • Word order complicated, unnecessarily clumsy and not aiding understanding.
          • People around me reread the sentence up to four times.
          • People whom I read the sentence took considerable time until their faces signaled understanding
          • some shook their heads: That can be said more easily.
        • ", und" with an ongoing or recurring semantic thread is bad German.
        • something "ist nur den Personen erlaubt, die" is a bureaucratic kind of wording - not commonly liked.

        Suggeset paraphrase:

        Personen dürfen Felder bearbeiten, die sie selbst erstellt haben, Kuratoren haben Zugriff auf alle Felder.

          Purodha Blissenbach (talk)15:58, 10 August 2015

          Good mentions, thank you. In most parts i agree. Especially:

          * Initial article not used but others - no, no. :-)
          * something "ist nur den Personen erlaubt, die" is a bureaucratic kind of wording - not commonly liked.
          

          Still, talking about "good german" it is mostly recommended to move the predicate ("dürfen", "erlauben") to the first possible part of a sentence. Having it at the very end makes understanding harder (except the sentence is very short). And still, a sentence with matching syntax and semantics might be better. Your translation sounds more common but is not precise. In a love letter it should sound nicer but an user interface should be more precise, shouldn't it?

          According to that and your mentions i would conclude:

          Das Bearbeiten von Feldern ist denjenigen erlaubt, die sie erstellt haben, sowie Kuratoren.
          

          I agree either:

          * ", und" with an ongoing or recurring semantic thread is bad German.
          

          But i don't agree the enumaration as a recurring semantic thread has a higher importance here, than making clear which is the reference of the relative clause. Maybe "sowie" makes it somewhat smoother even if it doesn't change the construction as such.

          Finally, though i think the sentence should be changed i won't touch this controversial item. I learned a lot on that example, your ideas and the discussions. Thank you!

            Lib2know (talk)14:32, 11 August 2015