MediaWiki:Yourgender/de and "geschlechtsneutrale Anrede"

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Revision as of 4 September 2015 at 22:43.
The "geschlechtsneutrale_Anrede"_48820 highlighted comment was edited in this revision. [diff]

MediaWiki:Yourgender/de and "geschlechtsneutrale Anrede"


I am really not sure whether this is the right place for raising the following question about the German localization. If there is a more appropriate place, please point me to it.

On d:de:Spezial:Einstellungen#mw-prefsection-personal-i18n, there is the question: Welches Geschlecht hast du?

I think the wording of this question is misleading. We do not want to know the users' gender. That is something a commercial data miner would want to know, but not Wikimedia. What we want to know is how a user wishes to be referred to.

I propose changing MediaWiki:Yourgender/de to: Wie soll auf Wikipedia über dich berichtet werden? Accordingly, I would change MediaWiki:Gender-female/de and MediaWiki:Gender-male/de to short examples such as: Benutzerin ... sie ... auf ihrer Diskussionsseite ... and: Benutzer ... er ... auf seiner Diskussionsseite ...

Now with regard to the third option, "geschlechtsneutrale Anrede" (MediaWiki:Gender-unknown/de), I think this is deeply flawed in the current implementation. Choosing this option is exactly equivalent to choosing the option "gender-male". There seems to be no difference in the vast majority of cases because the magic word GENDER either has only two options or – worse – the third option is identical to the first option.

This is very misleading to the users' intentions. If someone chooses this option because they wish not to give away any hints regarding their gender, then they will be very disappointed when they find out that Wikipedia disregards this choice and refers to them as if they were male.

I propose:

  • we either start writing real gender-neutral messages – changing messages such as MediaWiki:Group-user-member/de to something like {{GENDER:$1|Benutzer|Benutzerin|Benutzer/-in}}
  • or we be honest about MediaWiki:Gender-unknown/de and explicitly state that this option is equivalent to choosing the masculine form.

I am well aware of the generic masculine form. However, there is no formal difference between generic and non-generic masculine. They have exactly the same grammatical form: the masculine, which is certainly not a "geschlechtsneutrale Anrede". Giving a choice between a) generic masculine, b) non-generic masculine and c) feminine makes no sense, because a) produces exactly the same outcome as b).

    J. 'mach' wust (talk)18:06, 25 August 2015
    Now with regard to the third option, "geschlechtsneutrale Anrede" (MediaWiki:Gender-unknown/de), I think this is deeply flawed in the current implementation...

    No. This may be so for the German translation that you refer to. In the Colognian translation, teh masculine grammatical gender and the unknown grammatical gender are never identical. Translated to German, the masculine grammatical gender is rendered e.g. like:

    • M: "der username hat ..."

    while the unknown grammatical gender is always rendered like:

    • U: "der Mitmacher username hat ..."

    I believe your criticism of the German wording is valid. I suggest trying to convince German translators. I am one but very inactive on German. Try the talk page of Portal:de. If you get no replies at all, let me know on my talk page, please.

      Purodha Blissenbach (talk)04:47, 4 September 2015

      This is Portal talk:De ☺. I am indeed specifically referring to the German translation. Your reply is the only one I got so far.

      The Colognian translation appears to suffer from the same problem as the German translation. The default option gender-unknown consistently gives you the masculine form. Therefore, the option gender-unknown does not keep the promise that it will conceil your gender (MediaWiki:Gender-unknown/ksh: “ohne dorschblecke ze lohße, ov de ene Kääl udder e Weesch bes”). Instead, the MediaWiki messages will refer to you as if you were male.

      For example, in MediaWiki:Group-user-member/ksh, the option gender-unknown will give you the “generic” masculine form Metmaacher (Mitmacher) which is identical to the masculine form and different from the feminine form Metmaacherėn (Mitmacherin); or in MediaWiki:Group-arbcom-member/ksh, it will give you the “generic” masculine form Schiedsmann which is identical to the masculine form and different from the feminine form Schiedsmannfrau (really ☺?). As an exception, the German equivalent MediaWiki:Group-arbcom-member/de does not suffer from this problem because it uses the form Mitglied des Schiedsgerichts which does not reveal the user’s gender.

      When the option gender-unknown of the Kölsch translation puts dä Metmaacher in front of the user name (e.g. in MediaWiki:Flow-notification-mention-email-subject/ksh), it will give you something else than the option gender-male, but again, the “generic” masculine form dä Metmaacher is identical to the masculine form and different from the feminine form. This means the MediaWiki messages will still refer to you as if you were male.

        J. 'mach' wust (talk)08:39, 4 September 2015

        Disregard my previous posts which I have deleted as spam. I have adjusted you failed attempt to change MediaWiki:Yourgender. In general software cannot write anything about you, at least I do very much hope so. Perhaps after the datamining you very much critizise in your first post. Though I think all these changes are awkward I guess we have to find a compromise. I guess this is a good one.

          [[kgh]] (talk)18:39, 4 September 2015

          I would have said software can and does write about you, but I see your point.

          I think, however, that ansprechen is still somewhat misleading. It is true that the setting determines how a user will be addressed. But more importantly, it determines how a user will be referred to in public – either as "der Benutzer" by default, or as "der Benutzer", or as "die Benutzerin" (which is a very confusing choice, so no wonder the right words are difficult to find).

          Also, the impersonal angesprochen werden hides that this setting concerns the system messages. "Wie möchtest du angesprochen werden?" sounds almost as if other users would look up this setting in order to address you correctly. That is why I chose "die Wiki[pedia]-Software" as the grammatical subject of the question. I agree with you that it was not a good choice. But how about "die Benutzeroberfläche"? When you look at w:de:Spezial:Einstellungen#mw-prefsection-personal-i18n, you will see that "Benutzeroberfläche" is being mentioned immediately before. Therefore, it has already been introduced.

          I would therefore suggest something along the lines of: "Wie soll die Benutzeroberfläche von dir berichten?" or: "Wie soll die Benutzeroberfläche auf dich verweisen?"

            J. 'mach' wust (talk)20:29, 4 September 2015

            Bitte denkt dran, das es immer noch um Übersetzungen geht. Aktuell sind es keine Übersetzungen mehr. Bei "gender" geht es nie um das echte Geschlecht, dafür gibt es im englischen ja "sex". Daher bezieht sich "gender" aus meiner Sicht immer auf das von der Person gelebte Geschlecht. Hier muss man keine Beispiele angeben. Siehe auch, wo von sozialem und biologischen gesprochen wird.

            Ich würde die letzte Version von MediaWiki:Yourgender/de nehmen und die anderen Dinge wieder rückgängig machen.

            (Ich schreibe hier deutsch, weil es ja deutschsprachige Portal ist und wohl wenige andere Mitlesen).

              Der Umherirrende (talk)20:41, 4 September 2015

              0) Form der Anrede

              1) geschlechtsneutrale Anrede

              2) a) weibliche Anrede oder b) „Die Benutzerin“, „ihre Diskussion“, „sie bearbeitet“ usw.

              3) a) männliche Anrede oder b) „Der Benutzer“, „seine Diskussion“, „er bearbeitet“ usw.

              Femininum, Generikum, Maskulinum - besteht den Omatest nicht wie ich hier gerade "beweise", sollte in jedem Fall raus. Berichten und verweisen ist nicht der Hit, um es positiv zu formulieren.

                [[kgh]] (talk)21:54, 4 September 2015

                in bearbeitung ...

                  J. 'mach' wust (talk)22:40, 4 September 2015