Fallback to cs

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Fallback to cs

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Return to Thread:Portal talk:Sk/Fallback to cs.

It is really good idea, in fact every Slovak understands Czech language on very high level. I (as native Slovak) can only agree.

TomášPolonec (talk)12:18, 12 August 2016
  1. Is this even possible in MediaWiki? I always thought about fallbacks as a chain, not a (possibly cyclic) graph.
  2. I guess it would be quite surprising for Czech users to see messages in Slovak, as this is something no other software does, I’d say. And, given both languages have quite a good coverage, I believe, it is not that necessary. OTOH, in cases where an untranslated message in English would appear, having a message in Slovak would probably be… more useful for some users? (Even though surprising, as I said.)

So, I am not sure; it’d probably not hurt a lot, at least.

Could we have a rough count of messages translated in Slovak but not in Czech (or vice versa), just for illustration?

Mormegil (talk)14:21, 12 August 2016
  1. Yes, it's possible. We have for instance a reciprocal fallback between pt and pt-br.
  2. Coverage is ok for the most frequent extensions, but not for all of them. Maybe this change is going to affect/help mostly non-Wikimedia users. Is English less surprising/annoying, for the average user? (I'm not aware of data other than language proficiency statistics, to answer this question; maybe we can think of something else too?)

Special:LanguageStats/cs vs. Special:LanguageStats/sk can give an idea: MediaWiki extensions are respectively 54 % and 27 % translated, so we have at least 27 % messages in sk which would use the fallback. I'll try to make a list to see how much overlap there is.

Nemo (talk)16:06, 12 August 2016

@Mormegil: It is better than nothing. Czech users are still more like to see Slovak translation if Czech translation is missing and vice versa than to see English/German/Polish strings or nothing at all.

Dvorapa (talk)23:37, 12 August 2016

I made a list of messages: all cs, all sk, difference (comm -3). About a thousand messages are available in sk but not in cs, and about 7 thousands in cs but not sk.

Nemo (talk)15:42, 13 August 2016

Thanks, but it seems not to match reality in a few random tests I used. E.g. Notification-add-comment-yours2 is listed in sk and not cs, while it exists in both (and is an outdated/unused message anyway). Dtto Centralauth-editgroup-subtitle or tpt-desc. OK, User-profile-preferences-emails is in sk but not in cs, but it is unused anyway. Dtto ga-threshold. Whoa! Finally I have found Security-restricttogroup which seems to be a correct example. But the overall validity seems to be not very good by this random test.

Anyway; as I have said, I am not against the idea, just that I do not consider it that much important or useful. If someone does, by all means, go ahead.

Mormegil (talk)15:11, 16 August 2016

While it can make a sense to set it in generic MediaWiki installation (although sk as a fallback to cs is quite unusual(*) - I can't recall any software (except for that where sk is the original development language) doing that, everywhere there is a fallback to en or any other worldwide language), it must obtain a consensus on both sides on relevant Wikimedia wikis.

Also mind phabricator:T13267.

(*) besides fallback from language with higher number of speakers to language with lower number of speakers is quite illogical

Danny B.23:24, 20 August 2016

Wikimedia wikis don't automatically rule MediaWiki i18n; there are hundreds of MediaWiki wikis in Czech and i18n is there to benefit as many users as possible.

There's nothing illogical about a reciprocal fallback, see also the referenced research; the "bigger" language, as defined by number of translation, will simply use the fallback less. Per the list provided above, cs messages falling back to sk are 7 times less than sk to cs. You can probably translate them all in an afternon. :)

Nemo (talk)06:05, 21 August 2016

Please read properly what I wrote. Both here and in commit message. That would prevent you reacting with useless post.

In a nutshell - by default yes (I don't care), on WMF wikis obtain consensus.

Danny B.18:49, 22 August 2016

In my opinion the fallback to sk/cs is much better than default fallback to en (e.g. I´m the only one in my large family, who speaks English, but everybody understands Slovak).

Dvorapa (talk)06:39, 21 August 2016