[[[Portal:Rmc|rmc]]] Activate new language: Carpathian Romani - ''romaňi čhib''
Hi, I have the projekt to iniciate Carpathian romani wikipedia in the Incubator. Because this language still have no wikimedia projekt, I would like to start the translation on translatewiki for wikimedia's projekts. Language in writen in latin characters so LTR. Thanks
I can probably add it.
Are there any other websites in this language?
Is it distinct from the language at https://rmy.wikipedia.org ?
You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:
The action you have requested is limited to users in the group: Users.
You can view and copy the source of this page.Verdy p (talk)
I don't have such linguistic knowledge as Verdy p, but working and communicating with Romanis from Slovakia, I can tell that they do not understand vlax romani. An other important point is the recent strong influence of the majority language in the romani language which of course differs from every country. In Slovakia and Czechia, romani use a Czechoslovak standardized writing which is different from the international one, unknown by romani except by few specialist. Spoken with several people, we choose to use the Czechoslovak standard to Start the wikipedia project to be understood by the largest northern central romani people and get the latest audience as possible. As reference there is the today's most complete Slovak-Romani dictionary (isbn 978-80-970999-0-9). But in the future, I would be good to support the two Latin scripts Czechoslovak and international.
Note that independantly of the ISO 639 classifgication of Romani languages, they are **independant** ofd their written forms which vary greatly: Traditionally these languages have been used orally, witgh strong enough differences in their oral forms to be encoded separately. Its classification however complicates a lot if you take the written forms, because they have *no* standard. As well the oral languages are constantly adapted locally with the dominant language with which they coexist, so much that there are many things borrowed unformally: these broowing may be lexical (and often persist in their tradition) but also grammatical (these are much less persistant, and the same people may change these depending on where they are or travel: so beside the "pure" language spoken by the community themselsves in their own families, when they travel and communicate with others, they constantly adpt their language to other speakers, including with the various gipsy or travellers communities). It should be noted that Romanis people are very frequently multilingual, because they travel a lot across countries (that's why it is often hard for them to adopt a nationality in Europe, and why they are also often discriminated, for not adopting any national standard; still there are some Romani communities that have been settled and have stopped migrating: these settled non-migrant communities are most common in South-Eastern Europe (notably in Romania and Bulgaria, but as well in some other places much further, such as Egypt and US, where they have more or less adopted some national standards, and then started to develop a strong local dialect very influenced by the local language such as English and Arabic).
In the United Kingdom, the Romani travelers have largely settled and their inherited familial language has then adopted the local English language so much that their language initially forming a very distinct dialect has become a minority language then threatened: Welsh Romani for example is now considered almost extinct: it iinitially adopted a local form based on the regional Welsh language, but as Welsh itself was threatened and remlaced by English, the Welsh Romani has disappeared, and there remains just English with some Romani terminology more or less adapted. Angloromani also has almost disappeared as well. Now Ropmani travelers may come to Britain, but most of them are Vlax Romani or Central Romani people which may cross the English Channel only for a few months, or for temporary familial or festive or religious events (they will often come from France, Belgium or Germany).
Anyway this topic is about [rmc] (Central/Carpathian Romani): yes it is very distinct from Vlax Romani [rmy]. But it's almost impossible to assert which language it is precisely in the writtern form. As well most Romani peopl use the Latin script, but this= is not universal: the Cyrillic and Greek scripts are used as well (there was an attempt done in Russia, Belarussia and Ukraine) to develop a standard based on Cyrillic, and sometimes iot may be used for a few Romani languages: this Cyrrilic form may have been used during the USSR, where Romani people were isolated from Western Europe, but now they are in contact again with other Romani people in Romania and Turkey, and now throughout the European Union where they can travel freely: the Cyrillic script is now almost no longer used except in Western Russia where there is a significant Romani community settled since long.
(I don't know if Romani people settled in Egypt use now the Arabic script; but it is very likely to occur if they have converted from Christianism to Islam).
Are there any other websites in this language? :)
A few page written in Carpathian Romani on the internet:
- Course for beginners: https://www.statpedu.sk/files/sk/metodicky-portal/metodicke-podnety/amari_romani_chib.pdf
- Government information about census in Czechia: https://www.czso.cz/csu/scitani2021/domov-rm
- Intitute of Romani studies University of Nitra (Slovakia): https://www.romologicke-studie.ukf.sk/rom/bazalne-informaciji-romani-chib/
- Slovak law translated https://www.slov-lex.sk/documents/10184/81844/184_1999.pdf/979c04a8-0615-4123-bdeb-4b6bfa2b2102
Here's what I'm wondering about. We already have the Vlax Romani language (code rmy), and in the list of langauges it's called "romani čhib". In the links that you sent me, I can see that the language is called "romanes" or "romaňi čhib". The name "romaňi čhib" is not identical, but very similar to "romani čhib". Is there perhaps a name that I can give it, so that it will be easily distinguishable from "romani čhib" for people who will see both in the same list? Would the name "romanes" be acceptable, or is it also ambiguous?
Note that even if the languages are different, the pople using them may still colloquiially call it often the same way as they have somme common origin and they may forget to give the distinction. However the term "Romanes" is, apparently only used to refer to the people (ethnonym) as a group (where as "Rom" or "Ram" refers to an individual man or women) , not to the language or culture. In "romani čhib" the important term to see is "čhib" which explicitly says this is a language, but nothing else.
So for Vlax Romani, the translation as "romani čhib" does not designates explicitly it is the Vlax variant, it could be used as well for any other Romani language. And it you look at [Portal:Rom], refering to the macrolanguage "Romani", you'll see that it also has "romani čhib".
We then still need a better translation for "Vlax Romani" (than "romani čhib" which is jsut a short convenient designation used by people in their own community only, but probably not when they speak with other Romani communities and want to better identify their own language; however most Romani people are multilingual already and constantly adapt their language to their other locutors and where they live or go, so probably they also adapt their own Romani language as well to the other variants, and the simple idea of making these distinctions may seem "strange" for some of them, notably for those that are used to travel frequently across borders several times a year, and whose children go to schools in various countries with various official/national languages they are forced to learn too instead of Romani which remains a strong language in their family and that resists because, unlike the major languages they're forced to use in each country, thir familial language remains stable across their frequent travels).
And today there are less restrictions forbidding them to travel, and in Europe there are many laws forcing municipalities to create suitable meeing points and camping sites for travelers (Romani or not): there are also lot of other European natives that need to travel for their work, notably lot working seasonally in agriculture/forestry, tourism, arts, or building industry; as well they have families and must have access to schools for their children, which may then become multilingual if they travel across national borders (very frequent now in Europe whose internal borders are still wide open, even with the temporary restrictions related to COVID-19.).
Romani languages is then more threatened for settled Romanis, than it is for nomadic Romanis which can naturally preserve their language in well-defined familial communities, independantly of national borders.
So we still need better, more stinctive native names for Romani languages. For now [rom] (Romani "macrolanguage") and Vlax Romani share the same ambiguous name. I think that only the current translation for [rom] is correct. We need better native names for all the listed variants (notablyt because they are in fact not really mutually intelligible: different Romanu people using them will interact partly but most often using another non-Romani language, such as one of the major languages for the place where they are currently, or where they send their children to local schools: they can speak German, French, Spanish, Italian, Hungarian, Serbo-Croatian, Czech, Slovak, Romanian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian or Russian in their meetings, and will just learn a few words from other Romanes they meet and use them temporarily...).
"romani čhib" and "romaňi čhib" both means "romani language" (rom) without specification within the romani languages. The population use to say they speak Romani without any specification even if they do not, for have difficulties to understand other Romani. For Carpathian Romani, it's possible to translate "Carpathian Romani language" by "Karpatcko romaňi čhib". It's certainly not often used and long but native speakers will understand that it's the "Eastern Slovak and around Romani". Romanes as wrote Verdy p is not correct and also ambiguous. Maybe, I should try to ask at the Romani for Romani studies at the university of Prešov which term they use.
Thank you. Are there any websites or books that use "Karpatcko romaňi čhib"? I'd love to see an example of how it's used.
Hi, I'm back after exchanging information with Viktor Elšík specialist of the romani dialects at the Charles University in Prague https://ling.ff.cuni.cz/en/viktor-elsik/ about how to name the romani language used. If the ISO code is the right one to use for this particular romani language/dialect, the question of the name is much more complicated and he had no clear answer. The term romaňi čhib is the one that north central romani uses when south central uses romani čhib (the same as the Vlax Romani uses. Of course, not only the north central romani uses romaňi čhib. The romani language used is the standardized romani language form 2008 in Slovakia and Czechia based on the most widespread dialect of the central romani: the East Slovak Romani. This standardized East Slovak Romani is used by governmental communication, national medias...
In the scientific publication, the term north central romani language is used, in English, Slovak, but is not yet translated in romani. The term carpathian romani is not used any more by the scientific community and had never been used by the romani speakers.
If you ask a Romani speakers with language he speaks he will always answer Romaň/ni čhib no matter the dialect he speaks. To differentiate they will add the name of the country Slovakian Romani vs Romanian Romani, Spiš Romani vs Abov Romani (Spiš and Abov are traditional regions in Slovakia) no matter the dialect they speak. In Slovakia about 85% of Romani speakers speak Central Romani mainly North central Romani but the Vlax Romani speaker (10% of romani speakers) will also answer Slovak Romani even if they will hardly understand each other.
In conclusion, a translation of North Central Romani or East Slovak Romani would be maybe the best but not used at the present time in romani communities. Where North Central Romani cover the all area but is an academic term and East Slovak Romani is reducing the language area which is larger than only East Slovakia but a bit less academic and identify the variety of North Central Romani used for standardisation.
A last question is the max possible length of the language name North Central Romani in Romani is about 30 characters.
I fully enabled the language here on translatewiki to avoid further delays. (I also added a list of useful things to translate to your talk page, and I hope it's useful.)
I did it with the name "romaňi čhib", which appears to be the most useful at the moment. However, it's quite similar to other varieties of "Romani", and this may be confusing when they appear in one list of languages. I guess that it doesn't often happen within one country; for example, when people work with websites or documents in Slovakia, people probably choose from a short list that includes Slovak, Hungarian, and Romani, and then it's clear which variety of Romani it is. However, on translatewiki and on Wikipedia and other related projects, many more languages appear, and this includes other varieties of Romani, and then it may get difficult. So please try to think of a better name that won't be confusing, and let me know if you come up with something nice. I am reluctant about adding country names like "romaňi čhib (Slovakia)", but if other websites commonly do something like this, then maybe we can consider of something like that here, too.