Request for nog-cyrl and nog-latn codes of Nogai language

Amire80 deletes your and my edits in Portal:Nog (also in Wikipedia), can you please talk with him about that, because this is getting on my nerves!

TayfunEt. (talk)10:04, 8 May 2022

There are many references, including in Wikipedia Such as this one (page 274) https://books.google.kz/books?id=M9fDifnkMJMC&pg=PA273&dq=nogais+in+turkey#v=onepage&q=nogais%20in%20turkey&f=false

Amire80 is russifying the subject, ignoring (denying) that there are now MORE Nogai people living today in Turkey and Romania, where they use the Latin script than there are in Dagestan (Russia), Crimea and Urkaine.

Verdy p (talk)10:10, 8 May 2022

Here is also a man from Romania who is talking in Nogai language and saying that there are many nogais.

https://m.facebook.com/nogaierindeutschland/videos/675457533312014/?locale2=ps_A

And what can we do that he stops this?

TayfunEt. (talk)10:17, 8 May 2022
Edited by author.
Last edit: 10:43, 8 May 2022

We can provide published books (see for example references in French Wikipedia, because Amire80 also deleted references in the English Wikipedia) You may also look at references in Romanian Wikipedia and Turkish Wikipedia.

Other searches are possible as well in Google Books, but you may look into many other libraries (in various countries). I have found references as well at the "Bibliothèque nationale de France" (BnF) such as

May be Amire80 will stop when we list serious books from ethnologues and linguists. Clearly he does not care about Facebook (especially not about videos like this one, as they don't demonstrate any written text, neither Cyrillic nor Latin)

Verdy p (talk)10:23, 8 May 2022

Here is a book in Nogai language written in latin script in Turkey: http://www.turkevi.org/ilk-nogayca-roman-kitabi-yayinlandi/

TayfunEt. (talk)10:26, 8 May 2022

Don't talk to me, submit all findings in the existing thread on the Support page.

Prepare a list as long as possible of books (various topics, not necessarily about the language itself or by linguists, popular culture and arts are good as well, and in libraries of many countries, including Russia) to contradict Amire80. I'm sure we can get a list that spans all the 20th century and your recent finding about a roman published recently is an excellent proof that it is actually used today.

And I don't understand why Amire80 performs this edit war, against all evidences ! He does not want to search a minimum (a basic search even with just Google reveals many things instantly; in fact we find MORE contents published with Nogai in Latin than there are in Cyrillic: in Dagestan and Crimea under Russian control, Nogai Tatars seem to be forcibly assimilated to Crimean Tatars and there's an ongoing russification of the area, sustained by armed forces and local dictatures sustained by Russia, so books published in Nogai Cyrillic are rare, except in Ukraine and Bulgaria).

Verdy p (talk)10:32, 8 May 2022

I did also see that in the books was written without the letters Q and Ğ. I think we can put the letters out in Portal:Nog/Latn-Cyrl transliteration

TayfunEt. (talk)10:53, 8 May 2022

I had already noted that case for 'Q' in a prior message, but also noted cases where the Cyrillic version was also using a distinctive digram (as a Cyrillic K followed by a hard sign). I think this case applies to words borrowed from Arabic or Persian (probably islamic or for other religions in the Caucasian and Mesopotamian region, which also used the Arabic script, including Arabic, Persian, Chechen, Urdu, and Jewish dialects of these languages, may be even from Armenian or Georgian).

This is not uncommon for other Turkic/Altaic languages of the Caucase and of Central Asia (possibly up to Western and Northern and China or Southeastern Russia, with historic additional contacts with Mongols). Tatars have followed the long and complex path of the former Mongol Empire (before it collapsed under the expansion of multiple empires, Chinese, Persian, Arabic, Ottoman and Russian, with various invasions and migrations, and propagation of cultures borrowing many words commonly used for religion and governement; these migrations are not terminated, as international borders are still changing, and are still highly disputed today).

For the case of 'ğ Ğ', I wonder if this comes from the contacts with Abkhazian, Georgian or Armenian... or even from Romanian (which, like also English or Italian, has two pronunciations of the Latin letter 'g G', i.e. hard as /ɡ/, or soft as /ʤ/; in French the hard/soft phonetic distinction for the Latin letter 'g G' is between /ɡ/ and /ʒ/) In the Cyrillic script, it is natural to append the hard and soft signs after the base consonnant in a digram to make this distinction (however the cyrillic soft sign usually also applies a vocalic change into a diphtong more or less based on a /j/, and Russian has specific letters for them).

Also there's a possible influence of the former Glagolitic alphabet that was used before Cyrillic (in Old Russian, also in Old Georgian): Glagolitic had distinct letters for the unaspirated 'KH', versus the "aspirated" 'KHH', and also had distinct letters for the unaspirated 'G', versus the aspirated 'GH'). As well the Armenian alphabet distinguishes "g" from "g‘" with distinctive Armenian letters (adding an apostrophe when transliterated today to Latin). Armenian (like also other Tatar languages) have borrowed many Turkic (Old Turkish) and Persian words or radicals. Historically as well, Greek (or "Pontic" also spoken in the Nogai region, notably all along the coasts of the Black Sea) had a supplemental "digamma" letter which was distinctive from "gamma".

Verdy p (talk)20:18, 8 May 2022
Edited by author.
Last edit: 13:48, 11 May 2022

I am trying to talk with him, you can try return your edit in Portal:Nog.

TayfunEt. (talk)04:25, 9 May 2022

No I cannot, because Amire80 made this edit war (for a language that he actually has no knowledge, he does not understand it either in Cyrillic, confuses it with Crimean Tatar, and he prenteds that the Latin script used by Nogoï is for the Turkish language, even for books published in Latin in Moscow!), but he also has blocked the page for the next 6 months ([Edit=Allow only administrators] (expires 10:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)) [Move=Allow only administrators]).

And he has not acknowledged your messages, sent to him, he denied everything. So I doubt he understands anything.

All that can, be done is to have more people contraditing him and complaining about his abuse of privileges for enforcing his own rules on a topic that he does not know at all and where he will not even contribute anything. Amire80 is an admin, but ther eare a few others (but they trust Amire80 a lot and do not want to act against him, even if his real activity on this wiki is very weak). The best that can be done is in Wikimedia, with many more admins and users: they could convince "Nike" to force Amire80 to make anything on this topic and revert his abusive block. But Amire80 can also be blocked and sanctioned in Wikimedia, even if he is not here. So I suggest you follow this topic on safer areas: notably Romanian and Turkish Wikipedia (and probably Wiktionnary as well, because they are also refencing terms translated in other languages and optionally linked to their own target Wiktionnary).

If you can find facsimiles of free books, you could as well start transcript them in Wikisource. However I do not known the Nogai language at a sufficient level to make that because it requires good knowledge of the orthography (or the phonology if there's no established standard orthography, supported by dictionnaries made by reliable academic sources or wellknown publishers)

Verdy p (talk)18:15, 9 May 2022