Translitteration rules for Nogai (ISO 639: nog) between Latin and Cyrillic scripts

@TayfunEt.: Note: I transformed your unreadable/unformatted list into a table. I did not add any additional pairs or letters (but some may be needed) and made the table sortable.

But consider the difficulties (annoted) that a transliterator has to handle.

Disambiguation rules must be confirmed, but also specified more precisely for the ambiguous cases noted with "(?)".

From the sources I've read the disambiguation between K and Q in Latin, is that Cyrillic notes the Latin letters "q" or "Q" (or the Arabic letter "Qaf") with digrams "къ" or "Къ" (or "КЪ" contextually for fully capitalized words, i.e. when immediately followed by another capital).

Then there remains the question of Cyrillic letters "ь" or "ъ" if they may occur as initials, i.e. not as the 2nd letter of a Cyrillic digram. You indicate this should be empty in Latin. But some sources seem to use apostrophes (preferably curly) for transliterating "ь" (or "Ь") to Latin, so that the conversion is reversible back to Cyrillic (notably proper names).

There may also need some additional transliteration rules for proper names possibly borrowed from Ukrainian or Belarusian, notably their variants for the Latin letter "I", and for other digrams with "ъ" or "Ъ" for traditional names from Arabic or Persian/Farsi origins, and initially transliterated from Arabic to Cyrillic with these Cyrillic digrams: converting them to Latin may use also apostrophes ror "h/H" which could become ambigous when converted back to Cyrillic "x" or "Х" where it was a digram "xъ" or "ХЪ").

I've seen also some uses of the consonnantic Latin digrams 'ng', 'dj' and 'dz', as well as the occasional use of other diacritics (caron or dot below) on other letters (I'm not sure how to match them in Cyrillic). In Romania, there seems to be alternatives for 'g'/'gh', plus some additional vocalic digrams. And an additional rule seems to exist between Latin 'u', 'v' and 'w' (and between Cyrillic 'у' and 'в').

Once this table is fully fixed an confirmed, it should be posted into the Portal:Nog page. And then submitted to comments from linguist experts (to see if we need to handle more exceptions), and if we need to also add support for the special MediaWiki syntax -{ ... }- as a helper for automatic transliterators in articles where there's a need to handle more exceptions. At that time the transliteration rules should be proposed to MediaWiki developers to implement them, so they become immediately available (and so that we no longer need translation specializations for Nogai between these two scripts). Adding support for Arabic script may be postponed to later if needed (are there Nogai writers in Iran or still using the Arabic script for islamic texts, including in Dagestan and Turkey?).

Verdy p (talk)20:55, 27 April 2022
Edited by author.
Last edit: 13:49, 28 April 2022

This two letters ("ь" and "ъ") are only found in Russian words (but (!!!!) the letters аь, уь, оь and нъ are also for native Nogai words) and in Latin is it not used (like Crimean Tatar). For example the word "февраль" → "fevral" (is also in Crimean Tatar). The Cyrl "Е е" is "Ye ye" when is it the first letter of the word (ел → yel). Q and Ğ comes after the hard vowels (а ы о у ;a ı o u) багша → bağşa, окув → oquv. Also when the second letter is a hard vowel is the first letter Q/Ğ (Карт → Qart). And thank you for making the table!

TayfunEt. (talk)12:50, 28 April 2022
Edited by author.
Last edit: 14:22, 28 April 2022

With your response I updated the table, if it is ready, it may be imported in a subpage of Portal:Nog, such as Portal:Nog/Latn-Cyrl transliteration.

Just posting an alphabet is insufficient to implement and support a reliable transliterator in MediaWiki that would be very useful in wikis to avoid maintaining distinct pages, and it could also allow using a Latin-based input method, even if the articles are stored in Cyrillic (but still readable in Latin, thanks to the transliterator that would come handy as a tab at top of pages, like in Chinese or Serbian, with stored user preferences).

Note that for the Cyrillic letter 'ь' or 'Ь' which does not follow a vowel 'а', 'А', 'о', or 'О' to form a digram in Cyrillic (that is transliterated to 'ä', Ä', 'ö', 'Ö' in Latin) that may occur in loan words borrowed from Russian or Ukrainian (notably proper names), there may still exist the need to support a way to input it in a Latin input method, so that the Cyrillic letter 'ь' or 'ь' will be stored in the article. A way to do that would be to support an apostrophe (' or ’) in the input method or another sign like '`' that can still be typed easily on a Latin keyboard: the Cyrillic letter 'ь' or 'Ь' would be stored, but rendered as nothing in Latin by the transliterator from Cyrillic to Latin when it does not follow a Cyrillic letter 'а', 'А', 'о', or 'О'.

Note also that you did not reply about

  • the Latin distinction of 'v' or 'V', vs. 'w' 'W' (only 'в' or 'В' in Cyrillic); they occasionnaly form digrams as well that may be distinguished easily in Latin, but written specially in Cyrillic (with additional digrams or diacritics?)
  • other existing vocaling digrams using 'ь' or 'ь' in Cyrillic (for diphtongs in loan words, borrowed from other languages).
  • other existing consonnantic digrams using 'ъ' or 'Ъ' in Cyrillic (for loan words, most probably islamic related words borrowed from Arabic or Persian/Farsi , or from other languages which have a few additional consonnants, that may be transcribed for example aspirated consonnants as 'kh', 'bh'...).

A similar table could be made for Crimean Tatar as well with the same benefit.

Verdy p (talk)13:22, 28 April 2022
Edited by another user.
Last edit: 14:22, 28 April 2022

Ok we can edit the sign ' for ь when it's needed in names and I did make the Page: Portal:Nog/Latn-Cyrl transliteration

TayfunEt. (talk)13:47, 28 April 2022

Now it's time to ask to reviewers speaking/writing Nogai (notably those in Southeastern Romania or Turkey around the Black Sea).

Crimean Tatars have a different need, but Romanian Tatars, as well as Crimean Tatars that fled the area of conflict between Russia and Ukraine, or those living in the conflict area in eastern Moldova may have some views.

And in Southern Romania, they are also in contact with Bulgars from which they may have borrowed loan words, or jointly borrowed words from Romanian, or from Moldovan (Romanian written in Cyrillic and also under influence of Russian or Ukrainian). Along the Romanian coast of the Black Sea, there are also contacts with Greeks (speaking some form of "Pontic" but still using the Greek alphabet, more similar to Cyrillic and transliterating it as well to Latin in Romania, when they fled Turkey but did not go to Greece at its century-old independance from the former Ottoman Empire).

Verdy p (talk)14:00, 28 April 2022
 

And the letters аь, уь, оь and нъ are for native Nogai words, but why you did write only in Russian and Ukrainian words?

TayfunEt. (talk)13:57, 28 April 2022

I interpreted what you said about the letters 'ь' and 'ъ'. May be you were not clear ? OK I've removed this note (and the yellow color for these cases, the yellow meaning that it is occuring only in load words)

I moved the table at top of this talk thread outside this thread (replaced by a link). This avoiuds maintaining the two pages.

Also there's still a transliteration issue between Cyrillic 'э Э' and 'е Е', when not at initial position, as they both give the same Latin letters 'e E'.

  • It's not a problem for articles and translations already written in Cyrillic (because they will be correctly rendered as intended in Latin), but can be a problem for inputing text 'e E' in Latin in an input method: which Cyrillic letter should it choose in that case for the stored page, 'э Э' or 'е Е' ?
  • Is it possible to input an Latin digram like 'e’ E’', or 'ye' 'YE' at the initial (even if it normally does not occur in Nogai words) to get 'е Е' in Cyrillic, while inputting only 'e E' in Latin, but not at the initial, would produce 'э Э' in Cyrillic ?
  • It can also be a potential issue for loan words (especially for proper names borrowed from various languages written in Latin which have a clear distinction between 'e E' and 'ye YE').

If you take the Russian name for "Kyev" and not the Ukrainian name "Kyiv", we don't want to get "Kev".... Though for that case, the Cyrillic letter 'й Й' would be used to preserve that 'y Y' phonem in Latin. The other problem would be the initial Cyrillic 'K', that Nogai-Latin would potentially write as a Latin 'Q'... but would still write it as a Latin 'K' because the Cyrillic 'K' is followed by an intermediate Cyrillic soft 'й' or 'Й' (before 'и' or 'И') with the borrowed Ukrainian name, or because the Cyrillic 'K' is followed by a Cyrillic hard 'е Е' with the borrowed Russian name.

Now if you consider loan words from Arabic or Persian, there's a strong phonetic distinction between 'k K' and 'q Q', that does not respect the usual Nogai orthography (notably for religious terms where it would be important to preserve that distinction). In Turkish, the Latin letters 'k K' and 'q Q' are considered distinctive enough, and the same is true for the Arabic script which causes no confusion. The confusion can come in Cyrillic, and other Cyrillic-written Turkic languages of Central Asia have opted for using digrams with the Cyrillic letter 'к К', or use Cyrillic variants of that letter (e.g. with an attached leg or crossing bar) for one of these cases.

Verdy p (talk)14:06, 28 April 2022

In Russian: Киев → Kiev, in Ukrainian: Київ (Кийв) → Kiyv. So how you can see is not great problem, in Nogai is it not the same sound how in Russian or Ukrainian. The letters q/ğ are not in Russian or Ukrainian names found (Максим → Maksim). The letters Q and Ğ are also used in native Nogai words (qaz, ağaş, aq, aqa...). The Cyrl э Э is in Nogai used for [e] sound only as a first letter, because the Cyrl E e pronounce as a first letter a [je] sound. And the user Amire80 removes my edits also yours in Portal:Nog and also my edits in Nogai alphabets and Nogai language in Wikipedia.

TayfunEt. (talk)17:47, 28 April 2022

I've seen the intervention of Amire80, that is evenidently not neutral on this affair, having a clear preference for the Russian or Hebrew views on the subject, and orienting the tlaks with a severe bias. He made several bad statements as well for German and Yiddish, as if he did not like at all the Latin script. Thats means he is politically or religiously oriented, and still does not leave place on NPOV rules. But he has a high influence, that can only be balanced by having more people showing that his assumptions are wrong. He wants demonstrated evidences, but just uses the power of the higher ruler that can promote and publish all they want for their supported languages of a majority (ignoring that minories exist and are even recognized, such as Tatars in Romania).

So to counter his attacks on the topics, we need more people involved (notably we could ask support in Romania or Poland, where there are now millions of refugees from Ukraine, including certainly native Nogai people. And we could sek support in lingusitic departments of univerties (notably in Bucharest and Warsaw, possibly as well in Istanbul or Ankara).

That's why I wanted this talk to be not limited to just my talk page and why I suggested to post it at least in a subpage of the Nogai portal (that IMHO Amire80 abused, with a fake argument, as if it was not on topic for the subject: he does not want any addition of a Latin script variant for Nogai translations, but now he also does not want any talk about at least transliteration, even if there are ample proofs that Latin is widely used by Nogai Tatars in Southeastern Romania, including politicians and religious parties, as if that Latin script did not exist at all and had no use, and as if all Nogai speakers were living in Crimea, now informally in Russia where they are assimilated with Crimean Tatars, meaning that Amire80 probably wants the annihiliation or assimilation of the Nogai language into Crimean Tatar, using only the Cyrillic script since their abandon of the Arabic script, as they were never converted to Latin like in modern Turkey).

Does Amire80 want a "russification" of Tatar languages? Note that I've seen several suspect changes or deletions made by him for several other Caucasian languages (notably those related to their Persian origin), including notably Abkhaz, Georgian, Armenian, and Azeri, with clear attempts to oversimplify their situation and their cultural history, just like what he also did by deleting one Yiddish variant and several other Upper German languages (notably some Alemanic languages, creating a severe bias to what is used now by Germanic migrants living in US, and forgetting the legitimate rights by those that remained as minorities elsewhere and developing their own local adaptations with different languages used by local majorities or minorities with which they are now in contact). I nthe coming months, if the war of Russia in Ukaine takes long, we'll see what refugees now in Western Europe (but in contact now with new western languages) will attempt to preserve their origin languages. The situation will be interesting to follow especially in Poland and Romania, possibly as well in Turkey.

The same should be observed for Armenians that were forced to leave their historic areas conquired by Azerbaijan (but before that war, there was a similar situation with Azeris that had left the areas that were occupied by Armenia). I'm neutral on this, I don't favor any community for another, but I'm not impressed by the strong voice of the current ruling power that wants to change everything and erase the history and cultures. I strongly support all linguistic minorities, but I don't want to take a political or religious position (all voices about this can be heard: NPOV is important for me and cannot be blocked with abusive requests to jutify over and over again the same views, just because they are supported only by minorities that of course don't have the same level access to major institutions and medias). I don't like at all that Amire80 rants about online communities and those that make the best they can with more limited means, but that are open to discussions to make arrangements (after all, minorities everywhere in the world and in all political or religious views, always have to make arrangements to survive).

This site is about translation and supporting minorities instead of living in an online world dominated by American English (or Mandarin Chinese and Russian, in their own local web which is not wordwide but is strong enough to live by its own means and with their own national "standards", and now disconnected with the rest of the world and even with their own diasporas living elsewhere).

Note that you are probably a better specialist then me for Nogai (even if I made efforts to make researches, somthing that Amire80 visibly did not do at all). Have an open eye on this and try to convince other people to join your efforts here or in Wikipedia, notably from Romania, Poland and Turkey, possibly even from Iran and other central Asian countries for their Turkic language (this won't be easy, these peoples also have their own local conflicts, and placed under control and ruling by other major powers like China, Russia, US, Saudi Arabia, and even Iran, Egypt and Israel: you need to avoid the political conflict and respect all beliefs; respecting NPOV means accepting the mutual coexistence, not the extension to the web of current conflicts on a space that is normally open to all, independantly of their current local governments).

Note that here in France I participate to a local association for the promotion of Ukrainian AND Russian culture for refugees in France, and not just focusing on forcing them to learn only French in France, German in Germany, Polish in Poland to get integrated and accepted. Is also support efforts for Romany people in France, as well as Syrian and Afghan refugees or migrants. And even if I'm christian, I've learnt a lot about Islam, and Judaism. I have also friends speaking Arabic, Kabyle, Persian, Western Yiddish... I've worked in Northern Germany, as well as Morocco and Lebanon, and sometimes in the Emirates. I like a lot Portugal and the Andalusian culture for travels, mixing Western Arabic and Romance cultures (the same occurs as well in Romania, with additional historic cultures from India and as far as Mongolia), just like I really enjoyed my journey in Lebanon (before the current economic and politic crisis and the disaster of Beyruth, but just after the last major invasion by Israel), where all the oldest cultures were present and living peacefully (including between all Christian and Islamic beliefs).

Verdy p (talk)20:13, 28 April 2022

I'm happy to see people like you. And I think Amire80 makes something like a russification and can we not just make that he can not make edits to the pages about nogai?

TayfunEt. (talk)16:16, 29 April 2022