Portal talk:Mnw

Mon language configuration updates

(Moving from Support.)

I request that ဘာသာ မန် be renamed ဘာသာမန်, but I don't think using ဘာသာ မန် is appropriate, and I'm worried about future Mon text writing being affected, I would like to request that please change that, I love the Mon people so much that I am worried every day that the Mon texts will be damaged after my death, that's why I tried to write on the wiki so that Mon people can learn multiple languages, Please fulfill my request, thanks. 𝓓𝓻.𝓘𝓷𝓽𝓸𝓫𝓮𝓼𝓪|𝒯𝒶𝓁𝓀 10:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the request. I filed it in Phabricator.

Do you have examples from dictionaries or other websites where it is written "ဘာသာမန်"?

Also, wouldn't it be enough to write just "မန်"? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@Amire80, Okay, I will provide explanations, dictionary and references.

• Explanations

1. If use ဘာသာ မန်, it's like closed your mouth when reading, if use text writing now, it will completely destroy the taste of reading( Example= if we had written and used Loveing as Love ing, imagine how annoying it would have been to read)
2. If မန် is used, different meanings may be separated, I will continue to explain the different meanings of မန် in some dictionary texts.
3. If ဘာသာမန် is used, only one meaning will come out (As an example, I would like to compare the Thai language= ภาษา+ဘာသာ+language มอญ+မန်+Mon=ภาษามอญဘာသာမန်, but Thai language is a language adopted by Mon and Khmer, so it has many similarities with Mon text writing ways( Example=นายနာဲ=Mr./this term has the same pronunciation and meaning, but this term comes from the Mon language)

• မန် term meaning dictionary definitions

  Proper noun

1. Mon Peguan (in old lit. Reman).
   1. ကောန်မန် = a Mon
   2. ဘာသာမန် = Mon language
   3. ရးမန်ပိ = three Mon provinces {namely ဖာသီ(မ်)၊ ဟံသာဝတဳ၊ မုဟ်တၟံ(အ်)}.
   4. ကောန်မန်ပိ = the three Mon tribes {traditionally မန်ညှ the Mon Hnya whose settle down in မုဟ်တၟံ(အ်) Muhtamoh or Mattaban province. မန်ဒ the Mon Dae whose settle down in ဟံသာဝတဳ Hongsarwaetoi or Pegu province. မန်ဒိုၚ် the Mon Diung whose settled down in ဖာသဳ(မ်) (Pharsam or Bessein province}. Their traditionally worshiped practices were different.
   5. မန်ညှ = the Mon Hna worshipped clothes rings and other decorations.
   6. မန်ဒိုၚ် the Mon Diung worshipped သၠသိုတ် the leaf used in Brahmanical rites and မန်ဒ the Mon Dae worshipped coconut spirit.
   7. ဟဳုအေရပ်မန် = to speak Mon.
   8. ဍုၚ်မန်ဗၟာ = Burma

(Note=I was very shocked to find that some modules of English Wiktionary used Talaing in a vulgar way, and I was very angry about that matter, but no matter how angry I was, I couldn't do anything because I didn't have the right to act or speak, and my account was banned, it's true that I will forever hate some of the admins as long as they don't delete the issue, but I couldn't do anything because some admins have the ability to lie to convince others, but if I keep talking, I will have to create new accusations for them, no matter how much evidence I showed, I was always defeated by the power of their lies. The name Talaing has absolutely nothing to do with Mon people and has never existed in Mon history. The name Talaing is a hate word coined by the Burmese to denigrate the Mon people. when call the Mon people the name Talaing, it reminds us of how the Burmese killed the Mon people inhumanely in the past. until today, the lack of Mon text knowledge among young Mon people is because they are afraid to learn Mon text. The reason is that the Burmese government calls the Mon text a rebel text and arrests those who teach the Mon text, because of this issue, the Mon people took up arms and started a revolution for more than 60 years with the aim of preventing their literature and culture from disappearing, also on the wiki, if there is an issue that will affect Mon literature and Mon culture, I will fight no matter how many accounts are blocked, my duty is to protect Mon literature and Mon culture as long as I live, but my statement is understood by anyone who sympathizes with the feelings of others, but we are the people who have been crying for many years because of the ethnic oppression of the Burman people)

• Verb

A term derived from the मन्त्र of the Sanskrit language

1. to infuse healing virus into {water medicine} by recitation of mantras to repeat a charm or magical formula recite mantra utter mystic words to heal or word of evil. [id.] ဗဂိုဟ်မန်။

• Noun

1. charm or magical formula.

• Verb 2

1. to repeat a charm using “ဥုံ(မ်) oom ऒम्”.

• References

1. Mon news
2. Rice news

I think the information I have given you is enough, thanks.--𝓓𝓻.𝓘𝓷𝓽𝓸𝓫𝓮𝓼𝓪|𝒯𝒶𝓁𝓀 06:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi 咽頭べさ, I'll probably do it soon. I just need to check a couple of other things. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:41, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

@Amire80 You can ask me anything related to the Mon language, you don't forget that I have advanced educational qualification in Mon language, but I honestly admit that I have many weaknesses in using wiki, if there were any courses on how to use the wiki, I would like to attend, but I am a very poor person and cannot afford the travel expenses, thanks. 𝓓𝓻.𝓘𝓷𝓽𝓸𝓫𝓮𝓼𝓪|𝒯𝒶𝓁𝓀 10:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• My two ideas about the future Wikimedia Mon language

1. Because I think that it should not be borrowed from another language until the original vocabulary of one's own people disappears, I think that Wikimedia Mon language should use Mon traditional calendar years. I hope that Wikimedia Mon language will become a reference for the literature of the Mon people in the future, also when writing text in Mon language on Wikimedia, we want to minimize borrowed vocabulary as much as possible and don't want to continue using this outdated င် vocabulary from the Mon language. if want to explain a little about င် vocabulary, the င် vocabulary is that at one time the Mon people used Burmese text style due to technical difficulties that could not be solved (Example=at one time, they were not comfortable writing Burmese text using Unicode, so a Burmese technician invented Zawgyi to solve this problem and distributed it to Burma citizens to use, but until now, in the time when technology is advancing, Burma's minority languages still face various difficulties in writing text in Unicode) for the reason I explained above, if possible, I would like you to change င် to ၚ် from Mon translated messages on Translatewiki using a Bot account.
2. on Translatewiki, we would like to display the messages in English that have not been translated from Mon language, but the reason is that the Mon people are unable to understand the Burmese language, the explanation is as follows.
   1. The Mon people in Thailand are very fluent in the Thai language, but they cannot understand the Burmese language at all, also the same is true of the Mon people of America, Japan, Korea and France. since the Mon people lost the war and no longer have a country, they are taking refuge in various countries around the world. currently, the Mon people do not have the freedom to use their own language, no matter which country they live in, so they lack proficiency in their mother tongue (Example= I usually speak Mon language only from my home, but if I go out of the house, I there is no more opportunity to speak Mon language, this kind of problem is faced by every Mon people)
   2. Most of the Mon people in Burma are proficient in the Burmese language, but their proficiency in their mother tongue is weak (A few clarifications= At one time, before the creation of Mon State in Burma, was not allowed to study Mon text, so had to learn it secretly in a Buddhist monastery. currently, built a Mon school in Mon State with the donations of Mon people from all over the country and continued to promote literature).

that's all I want to say, thanks.--𝓓𝓻.𝓘𝓷𝓽𝓸𝓫𝓮𝓼𝓪|𝒯𝒶𝓁𝓀 09:36, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

First, about changing the untranslated strings from Burmese to English. Before I even discuss the issue itself, I have to warn you: Never talk about hating any people here. I understand that English is not your first language, and I also understand that there has been a difficult political situation in Burma for many years and that the Mon language is endangered. However, this site is absolutely not political. All languages are legitimate here, and translators to all languages are welcome. Explaining technical requests by saying that you hate other people or other languages is unacceptable, and if you do it again, I'll have to block you.

The name of the language will be changed in the next few days.

About changing င် to ၚ်: I need a clarification. Are you suggesting replacing the letter 'င' with the letter 'ၚ' in all the translations to Mon?

About changing the language in which untranslated messages appear: It's technically possible to do it, but I'd also like to hear opinions of other people who speak Mon. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 04:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Changing the language name for MNW from ဘာသာ မန် to ဘာသာမန် is okay. However, I do not agree with changing င် to ၚ်. The Mon people have been using င since the beginning of Mon writing, dating back to the 6th century AD. Initially, Mon had only င, which represented both the clear phoneme (first registration) and the breathy phoneme (second registration). From the 15th century AD onwards, င္ဂ was introduced for the second registration, which has now become ၚ. For the first registration, the usage of င continues until today. From the Mon linguistic perspective, writing ၚ် is entirely incorrect. If possible, I would like to change all instances of ၚ် to င်. Htawmonzel (talk) 07:39, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay still need to ask user Aue Nai opinion on this issue, in my opinion, the use of င် makes Mon literature outdated and similar to Burmese text style, so I completely oppose it, but regarding this issue, I would like to confirm it carefully by counting the votes of Mon scholars and Mon community, thanks. 𝓓𝓻.𝓘𝓷𝓽𝓸𝓫𝓮𝓼𝓪|𝒯𝒶𝓁𝓀 09:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Mon and Burmese have shared the same script since the beginning of Burmese writing, as Burmese adopted the Mon script to write their own from the 11th century AD. The difference between Mon and the Burmese language lies in tonality; Burmese is a tonal language, while Mon is not. This is why Burmese does not have a single character with two sounds.

Mon uses a vowel-phonation system with two registers, each containing two vowels. Regarding င and ၚ, as mentioned earlier, င represents the clear register, while ၚ represents the breathy register. Some characters have two sounds: one for the clear register and another for the breathy register, such as မ (ma)./ma/ (clear register) and /mɛ̤ˀ/ (breathy register)

If you argue that င် is outdated and similar to Burmese, and you only wish to retain characters that differ from Burmese, you are left with only two characters, ၜ and ၝ, which are not used in Burmese because they are unnecessary.

I understand that some extreme Mon nationalists may choose to disregard the similarities with Burmese. However, I would like to emphasize that this might not be the most appropriate approach. Htawmonzel (talk) 10:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay do you want to use Mon characters as follows?

Middle Mon alphabet
က	ခ	ဂ	ဃ	င
စ	ဆ	ဇ	ဇျ	ည
ဋ	ဌ	ဍ	ဎ	ဏ
တ	ထ	ဒ	ဓ	န
ပ	ဖ	ဗ	ဘ	မ
ယ	ရ	လ	ဝ	သ
ဟ	ဠ	အ	ၜ	ၝ

and do you understand that anything changes from era to era? if you like the old fashioned style, dare you say that the Mon communities should wear the Mon traditional dress in the original way? but if they were to dress like that, the people would definitely think that Mon and Burmese are the same race. (Practical example = When we travel around the country, we don't dare to write Mon text for people to see, the reason is because some people think it's Burmese text, so they call us Burmese people. how do you solve that problem? but do you like it if someone else calls you Burmese people? but if another person calls me Burmese people, I get very angry. to solve the above problem, there must be a writing system different from the Burmese text style. in today's era of increasing AI technology, AI must have a writing system that makes the Mon text writing system easy to remember and the Burmese text writing system, as the times change, it is the responsibility of Mon scholars to modify our Mon text writing system so that it is not complicated by other languages, to find out how the eras are changing, take a look at the built-in technology of your current phone and computer, it's time to throw your outdated ideas in the trash.) Anyway, I totally support the Mon text writing system that user Aue Nai has adopted, but the Mon text writing system you are using is completely outdated and may cause unnecessary complications in the future, so I am totally against it. since you are older than me, you should pay attention to the attitude of today's youth, because our academics have outdated ideas like yours, we are lagging behind in the development of Mon literature. you think about i, you were the first to use Mon Wikipedia, but why is it lagging behind other language Wikipedias? but if you prioritize the attitude of young people, everyone will be interested in Mon Wikipedia. (Practical= I've been working alone on Mon Wiktionary for exactly 2 years and you've been pretending not to know and have abandoned me, if that's the case, who would be interested in Mon Wikimedia? in fact, people who work on Mon Wikimedia should encourage each other and exchange experiences) there is no point in arguing here, as I said, there should be a vote on the matter, thanks--𝓓𝓻.𝓘𝓷𝓽𝓸𝓫𝓮𝓼𝓪|𝒯𝒶𝓁𝓀 14:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Just a comment: I'm moving the discussion here, because it's getting too detailed for the common Support page. You are welcome to continue here. Please request an update once you reach consensus. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2024 (UTC)