PLURAL in macedonian

Plural for Macedonian is corrected in MediaWiki. A request to fix it in the CLDR database has been filed and we are waiting for their response.

I need explanation, why $1 {{PLURAL:$1|промена|промени}} in mk.wikipedia do not alter between singular and plural form. --brest 22:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Or, do we really need PLURAL here?--brest 22:44, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Please provide: (1) steps to reproduce (2) observed result (3) expected result. If you report a problem like this, other users will be able to replay to your observed results, as well as know what exactly you expect. With the current information, I can confirm nor deny you claim. Siebrand 00:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Changed the plural algorithm to http://unicode.org/repos/cldr-tmp/trunk/diff/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html#mk from something else. Is it correct now? (I mean here, WMF is obviously not updated yet, but I am assuming it used the same old code). – Nike 07:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(1) Should be:

1 --> промена (change)

2, 3, 4, ..... --> промени (changes)

(2) In this moment produce this:

1 --> промена (change)

2, 3, 4, ... --> промена (change)

I think the rules here http://unicode.org/repos/cldr-tmp/trunk/diff/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html#mk are not apropriate for this situation i.e. Nchanges ("$1 {{PLURAL:$1|change|changes}}"). Rules are little bit more complex, for example depends on the gender, ordinal or cardinal number, ... If we set $1 {{PLURAL:$1|промени|промени}} i.e. in english $1 {{PLURAL:$1|changes|changes}} it works good.--brest 16:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If the plural rules for your language are not correct in the standard, then please get it fixed there. I see no reason so deviate from the documented standard in MediaWiki, or any other product. However, if the standard is changed, we will change the implementation in MediaWiki, too. Siebrand 10:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

May be the defined standard is not good, but also the implementation here (MediaWiki) of such defined standard is not good. As I wrote before:

(2) In this moment produce this:

1 --> промена (change)

2, 3, 4, ... --> промена (change) should be 2, 3, 4, ... --> промени (changes)

and very clear, it is not correct.--brest 16:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Macedonian plural rule have 3 forms? As per the plural rules for Firefox there are separate forms for:

1, 11, 21, 31, 41 etc.

2, 12, 22, 32, 42 etc. and the other numbers:

0, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 27, 29, 30, 33, 34 and so on

I don't know what's correct. --Michawiki 21:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

What is the problem here again? Is *1 -> first form; every else -> second form not correct? – Nike 21:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which of the rules is correct. I'm not a Macedonian. According to the Firefox plural rule for Macedonian there is a 3rd option for numbers with 2 as last digit. --Michawiki 23:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

This is correct, for our case, i.e. for Nchanges:

• 1, 21, 31, .... ends in 1, not 11 -> first form (промена)
• everything else -> second form (промени)--brest 20:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

As I can see, here on translatewiki.net, now it works, only in the case of 11 not work. But on mk.wikipedia don't work almost in any case.--brest 20:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no progress about this issue. I am dissapointed!

PLURAL rule should be:

• 1, 21, 31, .... ends in 1, not 11 -> first form
• everything else -> second form

Can you provide sources for that 11 should be excluded or do I should go digging the library myself? If you are right and CLDR is wrong, we definitely want both fixed. What comes to it not working at Wikipedia, that is out of our hands as described in the FAQ and in other places.

Beside the fact that I'm native macedonian speaker in this moment I can't provide any source. I will try to find some sources. Could you help me how to see which sources use CLDR to define their rules? I know that mediawiki developers just implement CLDR rules, but they are wrong.

Plural status of 11

Hello guys. In support of Brest, not only me, but every Macedonian in the world would vouch for what he is saying. Everything ending in 1 is singular except the number 11, which is plural. Thus, in Macedonian we have `21 дете` (21 child) but `11 деца` (11 children).

I find it extremely hard to find language literature that refers to this particular fact, but trust me, it is so, this is extremely-common knowledge.

To see that 11 is in fact plural, one should conduct a simple Google search in quotation marks "like this". Search for "11 singular noun" and then "11 plural noun" and compare results. The only "11 singular noun" sequence that you'll get are the ordered points in a list, i.e. '11.'

Try doing this Google advanced search, where under "Search within a site or domain" type .mk and search the above suggested way. You will find exactly what we are talking about. Whoever is not familiar with the language, its nouns and plurals, they can always take from the `$1singular|$1plural` stuff here from the Macedonian translations at translatewiki and test them in the perscribed manner. I have already conducted many tests on different words and Google, sure enough, gives something like 100:1 results for what Brest and I are saying.

Here are some example searches for you, so you can see what we are saying:

"11 куќа" (11 house) as opposed to "11 куќи" (11 houses)

"11 година" (11 year) as opposed to "11 години" (11 years)

"11 месец" (11 month) as opposed to "11 месеци" (11 months)

"11 девојка" (11 girl) as opposed to "11 девојки" (11 girls)

"11 земја" (11 country) as opposed to "11 земји" (11 countries)

I hope that this would be enough proof for you. Thanks a lot for your efforts. --B. Jankuloski 11:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

That's convincing enough. Besides fixing it in MediaWiki the question is how to get it fixed in CLDR too.

Did you have any idea how to get fixed in CLDR?

I've now fixed the plural to work as described above. It will take some time to propagate.

Still not propageted :)

Yep, it takes time. I can't help it :<.

Who is responsible? At least 2 months PLURAL not in function.

See the first item in the FAQ. It applies to all changes except translated messages.

Does it mean that we need to wait or we can do something for mk.wikipedia for faster propagation?

Still not propagated.

The problem with plural in Macedonian (mk) is now being tracked as CLDR Ticket #2518.

Could this fix apply in Bosnian (bs), Croatian (hr) and Serbian (sr)? If yes, could anyone fix it too.

Is there something wrong with them?

Same problem and same rules could apply in these languages, too. Take a look, example: 11 {{PLURAL:11|čovjek|čovjeka|ljudi}}, gives 11 čovjeka and it should be 11 ljudi. That's in Bosnian (bs), and it looks same in Croatian (hr) and Serbian (sr)

All three has plural implementation that differs from CLDR and was not changed when those were checked.