MediaWiki:Restoreprefs 那个译“部分”就可以，统一条目相关就足够。直接用单字的 章/节/段 感觉不大合适。
章 (Chapter) 裡面會包含多個小節 (Section)，而節裡面有會有許多段落 (Paragraph)。 "章節" 一詞只是很概略的去說明有 "一段文章" ，並無法明確的指出到定是章還是節。 若原文的意思本身也只是對一段文章概略的說法，那翻成 "章節" 便可，也無須去討論到底是章還是節。
This specific user (LXY) has been a source of common dread for a few members in zhwiki (Chinese Wikipedia) community, which mainly boils down these reasons:
- Low translation quality
- A zhwiki sysop once said that 9 of 10 translations that requires going to TWN to change is translated by LXY, and personally I found this mostly true too. On a brighter note, this might be LXY actually contributing such a great proportion of translations to MediaWiki.
- LXY refuses to use common terminology used on zhwiki, citing "TWN has nothing to do with the WMF" as his reason. While the reason is technically true, the terminology difference has lead to confusions both inside and outside of zhwiki -- zhwiki admins have to maintain a separate set of translations, and other MediaWiki webmasters get confused by many string differences.
- Poor communication skills
- LXY has been a terrible listener and an aggressive speaker. In my personal discussions (or rather name-calling) with LXY, my casual (or mock-Unicode?) <SOMETHING WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS> notation has been taken as an offense to the style guide. His inability of understanding CC licenses resulted in him attacking the style guide I am using solely due to the NC license used, not to mention his later shift of scope by talking about "uploading this file to commons and it will get copyvio'ed". In fact LXY also shifted topics in this reply by bringing in other members of the zhwiki community who are very loosely connected with my actions to a point that I actually learned some new knowledge from this interaction.
- Disruptive behavior
- As shown in the previous example, LXY commonly shifts topics around to achieve an imposing effect in
discussionsdebates. In both of my personal discussions with him, he effective gets all TLWs: "are you still listing? come on baby". On the other hand, he is ironically easily offended by people using the casual (actually common) form of "you" in Chinese, and would threaten to start a block request for me only stressing what he has missed in his translation but not explaining it in full. This is a trait especially harmful to TWN zh community growth.
Note that this support discussion is not a permission revocation request or a block request, but an attempt to ask the specific user to stop their unconstructive actions by documenting it in public. Blocking should definitely not be the first option as LXY is a major contributor to zh-hans translations in MediaWiki. (As a random guy passing by fixing damaged parts reported on zhwiki IRC, I acknowledge that zhwiki depends on these devoted translators a lot.)
Further comments and edits are welcome.
Thanks for caring about unexpected translations and for bringing our attention on this. Generally, it's a good idea to ask a third person's opinion by discussing matters on the language portal, where I moved this discussion. In many cases, translators are able to reach a consensus, while personal disputes and appeals to authority are rarely productive.
Arthur2e5, what are the terms you refer to, or how many messages are involved? I only see a discussion about "stub".
Liuxinyu970226, please acknowledge that it's often hard to communicate and cooperate with you. Do you realise? Do you think you can make an extra effort?
Hello Mr. Nemo bis, If some sentenses that I said are really foolish, shame, and therefore inacceptable by Arthur2e5, then I would say "Sorry for my bad words, Arthur2e5."
But as this user pointed some controversial things, here're my points:
- As Special:MyLanguage/Project:About said:
- ar: Translatewiki.net ليس تابعًا لمشاريع مؤسسة ويكيميديا، ولا لأي مؤسسة أو مشروع مصدر مفتوح آخر؛ بل يُشعله Nike و Siebrand وهما مطوران لديهما خبرة طويلة في الترجمة، ومعهما فريق من العاملين.
- de: Translatewiki.net ist weder Teil der Wikimedia-Foundation-Projekte noch irgendeiner Stiftung oder eines Open-Source-Projekts.
- en: Translatewiki.net is not part of the Wikimedia Foundation projects, nor of any foundation or open source project.
- es: Translatewiki.net no es parte de los proyectos de la Fundación Wikimedia, ni de ninguna otra fundación o proyecto de código abierto.
- fi: Translatewiki.net ei kuulu Wikimedia-säätiön projekteihin eikä mihinkään säätiöön tai avoimen lähdekoodin projektiin.
- fr: Translatewiki.net ne fait pas partie des projets de la Wikimedia Foundation, ni d’aucune fondation ou projet en source libre.
- it: Translatewiki.net non fa parte dei progetti della Wikimedia Foundation, né di alcuna fondazione o progetto open source.
- ja: translatewiki.netは、ウィキメディア財団のプロジェクトの一部ではありませんし、その他の財団やオープンソースなプロジェクトの一部でもありません。
- ko: Translatewiki.net은 위키미디어 재단 프로젝트의 일부가 아니며, 또한 어떤 재단이나 오픈 소스 프로젝트도 아닙니다.
- nl: Translatewiki.net is geen onderdeel van de Wikimedia Foundation-projecten, noch van een stichting of een open source project.
- sv: Translatewiki.net är inte en del av Wikimedia Foundation-projekten, inte heller av någon stiftelse eller projekt med öppen källkod.
- vi: Translatewiki.net không thuộc các dự án của Wikimedia Foundation, và cũng không phải là tổ chức hay dự án mã nguồn mở.
- zh-hans: Translatewiki.net不属于维基媒体基金会项目，也不属于其他任何基金会或开源项目。
- zh-hant: Translatewiki.net並非維基媒體基金會的專案，亦不屬於任何基金會或開源專案。
- (Should I copy-paste anything else?) Therefore, the translations on Translatewiki.net, where possible, must be neutral between Wikimedia and non-Wikimedia environments. This user don't actually know, and think "any non-WMF wikis must also use 小作品 as the absolutely translation of stub, because stub is always from Wikipedia".
- By "Low translation quality", let's see this user's translation:
- Translate "extra" as "多余" (lit.unnecessary): MathJax:Tex-ExtraOpenMissingClose/zh-hant (although my translation is also same case), MathJax:Tex-MissingLeftExtraRight/zh-hant
- MediaWiki:Stub-threshold/zh-hans (said above)
- Double standard on "deprecated": Replace 不推荐使用 as 已弃用 (MediaWiki:Securehtml-form-deprecated/zh-hans, MediaWiki:Errorhandler-error-deprecated/zh-hans, MediaWiki:Templatedata-doc-param-status-deprecated/zh-hans, ...), however with an exception: MediaWiki:Antispoof-deprecated/zh-hant (reversely changed)
- Translate MediaWiki:Coll-rendering finished note article rdf2latex/zh-hans with "you", but actually this isn't necessary tl;dr.
- If this user is also pointing my "replace 你 by 您", that's logical expected. 你 is also used commonly as a word For reviling (the famous example of this line is 你妈, which means "your f*u*c*k*e*d mother", well, you really should translate your mother as 您妈 to be polite).
- "Poor communication skills" so what? Shizhao is also having same problem so why don't you say him? (c.f. m:Stewards/Confirm/2015/Shizhao).
- "refuses to use common terminology used on zhwiki".
- see Cwlin0416's case below;
- At least I translate template as 模板, Module as 模块, and in early months I also translate wiki as 维基 until someone told be that's a trademark, should not be used out of Wikimedia. Several of the words that I translated are already more and more Wikimedia friendly, and if you still point the "stub", Wikivoyage:互助客栈/存檔/2014年4月至6月#.28en.29_Empty_articles, where translated as 骨架条目 by @Zhuyifei1999:, so this user is also wrong?
- If you still like discussions under Wikimedia's rule, that said, m:mw:Localisation#Use_standard_capitalisation and w:WP:ALLCAPS (however, it's necessary to be ALL CAPS for MySQL commonds and some abbreviations, e.g. TWN and CREATE DATABASE...), this user don't know, I AGFed to ask Thread:User_talk:Arthur2e5/Special:Diff/6829187/reply_(14):
- "For example: <A CERTAIN HIGHLY TECHNICAL PAGE THAT NO NORMAL EDITORS SHALL TOUCH> (which MySQL commond?) What a user that can use ALL CAPS, do you know  (link said above)"
- Isn't this a work? [Citation needed]
This user don't reply, and still suggests that TWN should be fully following Wikipedia's rule (c.f. the Thread:Support/Code_of_Conduct? that closed by Nemo bis).
I'm very kindly to try my best knowledge to talk with you, Arthur2e5. But if you already violated AGF (isn't this also from Wikipedia that you're from?), e.g.:
- "首先我有必要告诉你..." (lit. First, I must tell you guys...)
- "我把关键的 token 指出来你还看不懂，我也是很惊讶的。" (1.lit. I pointed the key "token" to you guys, and you guys still don't understand, I'm also surprising. 2. Which "token"? 3.What form this "w:wikt:token" follows? 4.Not sure if this user is a Chinese-American or not...)
And still use a lot of unsenseful, unnecessary, uncommons, unfree, and confusing "context-context-...-context" that undocumented on time (see title of phab:T135575 for example, I believe this user won't document what "multicol-indicator-charrange-friendly" is until my point). Then I don't think that I should still be polite to you.
Liuxinyu970226, even this reply of yours sounds quite aggressive. And yes, you should still be polite. If you can't be polite with a user, just avoid interaction. Do you think you can manage?
PS: A very polite sentense to you (both Arthur2e5 and Nemo bis): 对不起，我错了，我不应该在未经讨论的情况下擅自更改已经有共识的字句，请原谅我，谢谢了。
It's fine. Just note that "consensus" is not rock-solid -- you can change it with some discussion. (One problem that arises here is that how zhwiki consensus and twn translators can agree with each other without either party feeling unhappy -- twn translators may not like the idea of joining discussions where they do not belong, while zhwiki users may not like going to twn to discuss either.)
However, this user should also say sorry to me, because in Wikimedia:Wsa-form-attending-goals/zh-hans, this user translated Wikimania as "维基狂魔会议" (lit. Wiki Monster Event? Which is not official and not acceptable by language environment), also in the entire Wikimania, the scholarship is not scholarship from university, so "奖学金" should not be used to be non-controversial
Translate "extra" as "多余" (lit.unnecessary) ... although my is same case
I am not sure about where you learnt your Chinese or English. 多余 more closely means "an unnecessary extra", i.e. "redundant yet sometimes harmful".
Hmmmmm, it's my example for your noncooperation. By the way I am fine with that zh_hant terminology, just don't miss that key token.
Oh wait you also talked about what "token" means? Sorry for that programming language parser terminology. Indeed it's too technical to be used for everyday talks.
Not sure if this user is a Chinese-American or not.
Thank you for appreciating my English writing skills. I scored 28/30 on TOEFL's writing section two years ago, which is really just OK.
Double standard on "deprecated": Replace 不推荐使用 as 已弃用
This comes with a reason. Most "deprecated" statements in the software industry can be read as "obsolete" which is more straightforward; hence "已弃用" (abandoned from use). That exception comes from their notes for translators. Yeah, read the notes.
Under the same logic, I would consider the word "mother" impolite as it is used in the phrase "motherf*cker".
Let's get the scope of that informal "you" (你) right: it's always used unless the people being spoken to is more senior in age, position, etc. than the speaker, or in cases where respect is preferred over intimacy. In fact using "您" to one's fellows usually implies irony, while properly used "你" doesn't. Finding my usage of "你" ironic as a fellow translator suggests either problems with understanding contemporary Mandarin written in the Simplified Chinese or extreme self-consciousness.
Now you are constructing a broken sentence without a subject, or an improperly placed imperative sentence that goes down one's throat like an edgy block of plastic.
scholarship → 奖学金
Neither is it "some random grant". This scholarship thing is, by itself, a more scholar (学) thing.
The phrase "奖学金" by itself is not limited to a university or any sort of fixed school. It's just a grant (金) rewarded (奖) for scholarly (学) things. The "奖" part used in common expressions might be debatable, yet I consider it OK because it a) shows some screening process required for scholarship applications b) that's what people use to refer to scholarships anyway.
"维基狂魔会议" (lit. Wiki Monster Event)
"sth. 狂魔" literally means "sth. crazy monster", i.e. someone is obsessed ("addicted") with sth. It's far more "manic" than the current "维基媒体国际会" (Wikimedia International Conference) translation, and I just wrote it in for fun (well...) and waiting for other to pick it up for future meetings.
Shizhao is also having same problem so why don't you say him?
Why can I always find something to comment on when I read back... You are hitting the point of bringing up loosely related topics.
BTW you are sounding a bit shizhao-狂魔 now, as you also brought him up in that stub dispute. All I can say is that people learn to use their strengths and to avoid showing their weaknesses (扬长避短).
See my reply there. Break it down, piece by piece.
so this user is also wrong?
Unfortunately he must be. But for him I am very happy to use the excuse of "historical limitations" or "lack of experience", while I don't think either applies to you.
"首先我有必要告诉你..." (lit. First, I must tell you guys...)
Having some agreements is an important premise for efficient discussions, as illustrated by this quote from former PRC President Jiang Zemin: "Now I have a feeling about news that we can have different views as long as we respect the same set of truth.
And, [B]eing able to correctly express both one's own ideas and the interviewee's ideas in reports is what I consider as 'high level'."
still suggests that TWN should be fully following Wikipedia's rule
I frankly don't want to go Linus Torvalds for this. Please try to disambiguate between "common wiki principles" and "wikipedia policies cited as examples".
I also translate wiki as 维基 until someone told be that's a trademark,
I agree with you on that 维基 would be a good phonetic translation. This case sounds like Stratasys trademarking "Fused deposition modeling", forcing others like RepRap to invent a new term for the same 3D printing technique. Oh wait it's not WMF but a competitor trademarking that? Now it sounds like RepRap trademarking FDM and...
Well, I don't think this trademark would be a threat as 维基百科 is still actively in use. Not to mention wikia. (Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.)
Well... As I mentioned, I am supposed to be just a random guy passing by doing random contributions. To me the term mainly goes down to "stub" and more cases which he brought up in that discussion. These zhwiki sysops (User:shizhao, User:范, et al.) mentioned previously should have better knowledge of these things.
One point: "BTW you are sounding a bit shizhao-狂魔 now". No, that's not right, the users who think shizhao is a monster, according to m:Stewards/Confirm/2015/Shizhao: Universehk, Vogone, Steinsplitter, ..., seems that he is mostly made Hong Kong people angry, so far such users are mostly from Hong Kong (and so that's not me).
For the last one (i.e. about trademark), there's an archived discussion m:Talk:Trademark_practices_discussion#維基 which is useful.
FWIW, admins on zhwiki have gradually developed a knee-jerk reaction to bad/unfavourable translations. We just override the betawiki string locally and call it a day. The discussions here on the topic of glossaries or styles or anything would all get to the point of "we don't care what zhwiki uses", and thus we are forced to recreate the wheel again and again.
The terminology can be (mostly) stabilized, especially the "whom to take, tw or hk" split seen in zh-hant translations. (I am quite happy that no zh-SG speakers have argued with zh-CN speakers to date, by the way.)
As a side note, keeping translations from both sides in that fictional "whom to take from" table would be helpful for custom install-time language splitting by tools like OpenCC (it does hk-tw conversion too), thus providing a solution for current "merged hant" problem.
"The terminology can be (mostly) stabilized" haven't you seen the MassMessage example? Per history, the MassMessage was having these translations:
- 大量信息发送者/大量消息发送者 (mainly provided by me)
- 群发消息者/群發消息者 (provided by @飞舞回堂前:, a Wuu Chinese user)
- 大量訊息寄件者 (provided by @Cwlin0416:)
- 大量訊息發送者 (provided by @Bowleerin:)
Is this still stabilized? If still yes, then let you see the history of MediaWiki:Last/zh-hans where 11 diffs about "prev" happened.
Thanks Jimmy Xu for letting us know; we certainly have to make this locale more stable.
As far as I know, Cwlin0416 has stopped edit warring. If some user edit wars without having had some discussion, just report the fact here and I'll remove their translating rights for the time being. (To make an example, Arthur2e5 above has explained his reasons well enough for the mentioned translations.)
If translators are split only/mostly according to their linguistic background (Taiwan, Hong-Kong and what not), then we should seriously (re)consider giving each block their locale. Is this the case?
Good point! Well, zh-hk is actually available: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:Translate/core?group=core&language=zh-hk&filter=%21translated&action=translate , so the question is just zh-tw?
The thing with zh locales is that one would really like to use automation given that most differences come not from sentence structures, but from word choices. Split locales mean split storage, and as long as there is some newcomer is obsessed with getting the percentage to 100%, we get whole lots of redundancy.
A relevant system where mostly automated conversion across zh variants is MediaWiki's LanguageConvertor.
I don't think LanguageConverter should be implemented here, since it'd be more and more tricky (please, believe me, /zh pages are really bad in MediaWiki.org as per phab:T106131#1481796)
I'm agree to had some discussion before edit, but there is no list about terminology which zh-wiki uses, currently one which is i made, all zh-wiki wants is do not edit any translation, all accuse from zh-wiki is i'm making vandalism. is this right?
I'm not intentionally to start edit warring. But difference between Simplified Chinese and Traditonal Chinese not only word but also region (Taiwan, Hong Kong). Before i edit Traditional Chinese, there is much translations is not suitable because translations are just following Simplified Chinese, "even some translations are only for zh-wiki". Although change translation will affect some documentation which zh-wiki currently use, this is helpful to MediaWiki Traditional Chinese users growth.
MediaWiki is not only for Wikipedia but also open source project, MediaWiki's user not only Wikipedia. I'm not "don't care what zhwiki uses", but i'm care Mediawiki Traditonal Chinese users uses more than zh-wiki.
I would say that the header of that user has a sentense which made me angry: "Wikipedia is one of the most prominent users of TWN MediaWiki translations, and therefore a good indication of user habit/consensus."
Didn't that user read our Special:MyLanguage/Project:About? Doesn't they know that TWN is never a part of Wikimedia Foundation projects?
至於您提到的下面那個thread，我想額外指出其合法性問題：Zhxy 519在該wiki的編輯，除了回退什麼也沒有，像這種只回退的所謂user竟然公開對另一個user指手畫腳（而不是先利用user talk，這裡涉及翻譯爭議的詞基本用英文作折衷用語），甚至我以他的角度在勸導Cwlin0416時，更是反而被他無辜指責為「You are not authorized to make any arbitration.」（他早先對我的其他指責至今還存檔於您提供的第二個連結中：「我對Liuxinyu970226在跨維基計劃的編輯不吝微詞，甚麼都想插一手。」「這恰恰是以上Liuxinyu970226等人胡亂修改造成的」，至今我還沒找他要求道歉呢），我只想問：有哪位在某一wiki當管理員的user，在另一wiki卻純回退編輯，還胡亂指責他人？這不是破壞和越權這是什麼？這是很合法的編輯行為么？
麻煩你先搞清楚一件事，我是以 "繁體中文" 以及 "Mediawiki 的使用者" 的身份來貢獻翻譯，並非 "維基百科" 的使用者。 TranslateWiki 本來就是一個開放而且鼓勵貢獻的平台，既使你是維基百科的管理員你也沒有權利干涉，而社群如何決定也不關我的事。 如果你身為使用 "繁體中文" 的使用者而且有意 "貢獻翻譯" 讓翻譯變的更好，我非常歡迎討論，否則這樣的討論是無意義的，因為社群並不會對翻譯有任何貢獻。 若你只是想藉由社群來指責我錯誤，抱歉，我沒有做錯任何事，用 "未遂" 一詞形容我想把 "模板" 也改掉，我個人認為是非常不恰當。 我停止也並非因為社群的反對，而是因為我認為還有其他更重要的翻譯必須完成，所以暫時擱置。
個人覺得翻譯擴展可以再改進一下，不用鎖死特定語言完全不能把它們翻譯；在有關語言上 (含fallback) 加上相關提示字句即可。
你提的想法是對的，但是太理想了。現在根本連繁體中文的翻譯人員都沒有幾個，更遑論說要開一個新的語系來給各地區語言使用。 對我來說，首要的目標就是把翻譯完整度提高，我只知道我所 "說" 的所 "寫" 的是繁體中文，所以我在 "繁體中文" 翻譯，有人願意翻譯就要偷笑了。
I'm MediaWiki user, but i'm not Wikipedia user, and i'm native zh-hant user, I don't know why zh-cn users always want to change the translate which we actually use.
Can you please start a discussion on Portal_talk:Zh and work out a consensus there? Please do feel free to discuss in your native language. In the meantime, I would like to urge all of you to not revert and/or introduce more translations that involve the issue that's being discussed until a consensus has been reached. Please also remain civil (not that I get the impression civility is an issue right now); if you feel frustrated, it's a good thing to wait for a day and only then reply. In case you can not reach a decision, please us know here again, and we'll try to mediate. Is this something you can work with for now?
Translate spending everybody a lot of time, especially keep keyword consistence. I don't know what is community consensus, If you guys think you can represent community, please prepare a list contain the keywords which is disputable, we can discuss. Do not like zhxy519, just revert some of my revision, it cannot solve the problem.
You don't know what is community consensus? OK w:zh:Wikipedia:共识
Cwlin0416， as you haven’t learned consensus yet, learn it asap. Otherwise we have to ask for strict measures on you.I"m MediaWiki user, but i'm not Wikipedia user is not a good reason. Your work is affecting whole zh-hant wikiprojects seriously without most of users agreement.
If/when some decision are made about the terminology to use in some cases, please document them on Portal:Zh. The discussion seems ongoing so I don't see anything to do for TWN administrators yet.
Nemo, as you see, chinese translators are so inactive that without starting a whole-translatewiki discussion, there can hardly be people coming to pay attention to this issue.
I do pay attention but I am completely incapable to make contributions on the language level, as most of us are, since we do not understand the language, or the script. We can give general advice, of course.
Ok, i'm understand community consensus now.
Zhxy 519, Please answer my questions: 1. Are you native zh-hant user? 2. Are you zh-hant translation contributor? 3. What is disputable term? can you make a list?
You haven't understood consensus and your questions are just useless. Persuade the community first.
Zhxy 519, this was not a particularly constructive reply IMHO. Making a list of problematic terms is certainly useful and probably you can think of some (ideally in a new thread in Chinese).
Cwlin0416, you said above that you changed messages for consistency, so you probably know what you were making consistent. Please start listing the terms you worked on as well.
Another issue is about User:Hudafu, I have looked the newest version of
("$1 billion years CE"): "公元$10亿年" ("$1 million years CE"): "公元$100万年" ("$1 billion years BCE"): "公元前$10亿年" ("$1 million years BCE"): "公元前$100万年"
Are these still work well with "$10" or "$100", should we revert these 4 edits?
For the translation specialised to the Taiwan vocabulary, it should be translated in zh-TW instead of zh-Hant.
For the translation between zh-Hant and zh-Hans, the difference between them should be minimal as there's fallback mechanism for those Chinese languages.
Therefore we should re-enable zh-cn/zh-tw on interface? I don't think so, unless if you are claiming the zh-hans and zh-hant should better be used by Overseas Chinese.
For this one, the Gan Chinese and the Classical Chinese are fallback to the Traditional Chinese. So in general those two are not intended to use as the Taiwan Chinese vocabulary, where they were translated in Traditional Chinese translation, are not suitable to localise them there.
So the same reason that "Why don't fallback yue to zh-hant or zh-hk"?
The reason for Yue is similar for that so I oppose the Yue language to fallback to zh-Hant.
By the way MediaWiki never disabled the zh-CN/zh-TW interface so those languages can be translated if the translations are different to their parent language.