Portal talk:Zh

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存档:/1(2009~2015年)/2(2015年~)

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存檔:/1(2009~2015年)/2(2015年~)

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Project-localized-name的繁體部分沒有翻譯

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/Project-localized-name的繁體沒有翻譯, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/2. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:23.

Wiktionary在zh-hant中應譯為「維基詞典」,還是「維基辭典」?

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/Wiktionary在zh-hant中應譯為「維基詞典」,還是「維基辭典」?, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/2. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:23.

做出 vs 作出

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/做出 vs 作出, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/2. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:23.

说明 & 說明

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/说明 & 說明, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/2. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:23.
A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/Fallback, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/1. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:20.

這是我整理的一份通用術語表,請各位朋友繼續增加擴充。

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/這是我整理的一份通用詞彙表,請各位朋友繼續增加擴充。, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/1. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:20.

繁體中文翻譯員嚴重不足!

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/繁體中文翻譯員嚴重不足!, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/1. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:20.
A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/Special:AdvancedTranslate被關閉了, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/1. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:20.

Mantis "Note" in Traditional Characters 繁體字

A thread, Thread:Support/Mantis "Note" in Traditional Characters 繁體字, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/1. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:19.

<del>关于Template一词的最终译名,投票吧!關於Template一詞的最終譯名,投票吧!</del>

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/关于Template一词的最终译名,投票吧!關於Template一詞的最終譯名,投票吧!, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/1. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 16 July 2017 at 15:19.

章节 和 段落 的区分与统一

我认为应该对应section和paragraph,征询意见。前者列入目录,后者是:等语法。

比如这样。

已添加到Portal:Zh/Glossary/General

YFdyh000 (talk)03:08, 22 April 2016

问题是chapter也可以译作章节,这样不又引发冲突了么

另外应该同时要请简繁用户/使用者参与讨论(只问一些近1~2个月有活跃的):@Cwlin0416, LNDDYL, Nbdd0121, , and 飞舞回堂前:

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)08:26, 22 April 2016
 

个人愚见,chapter为“章”,section为“节”,“章节”一词为这两者并称,用在这两者某一个上都不合适。另外大陆中小学语文教学中,section为“段(落)”,paragraph为“自然段”。

此外还有MediaWiki:Restoreprefs中这种跟“章节”无关的用法。

Hudafu (talk)09:00, 22 April 2016
 

原来还有一个chapter,之前不清楚。只记得很久以前谁说过section应该是章节而非段落,我就这样理解了。

chapter具体用在哪些地方呢?我目前是按==和:语法理解的章节和段落,==里面可以包含:,段落只是缩进而章节有目录。

MediaWiki:Restoreprefs 那个译“部分”就可以,统一条目相关就足够。直接用单字的 章/节/段 感觉不大合适。

YFdyh000 (talk)09:28, 23 April 2016
 

我之前发的那条是为了帮助拓宽思路,找出一些不合适的情况。

如果只考虑页面(条目)编辑这个范围。我的理解是section是指各级标题及标题下的整块区域,paragraph是指双换行区分开的自然段。考虑到通用性,以及“章节”这个词的含义,我还是不太支持这个词(比如用在讨论页好像就不太合适),我倾向于使用“分节”“部分”这样的词。paragraph作“段落”没异议。

Hudafu (talk)08:31, 25 April 2016

支持扩宽思路。我的理解是section是各级标题(纳入目录)的区域,paragraph是开头空两格的非目录段落。具体对应语文标准未研究过。

确实“章节”是指两个概念,只是经常合称。“分节”和“部分”好像太模糊了。chapter不知道被用在哪里,需要新的对应还是合用一词。

感觉直接用“章节”也可以,“章”中可以包含“节”,而编辑“章”时自然能编辑里面的“节”。只是“添加章节”这类用法会有些模糊,因为只有章而无节,不知道能否自然忽略。

以及,“分节”的字典释义包括“[subchapter]∶[如法规等]一章内的分节”,更像是“节”而非“章”,应该不适合用在section。

YFdyh000 (talk)02:58, 26 April 2016

照您的说法,alias和also know as也应有不同的翻译,但目前却一致翻译为“别名”。

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)01:40, 1 May 2016

不是“别名”和“也称为”吗,已经一致翻译了?我的翻译习惯是一对一,虽然没把握全对,但比较有统一性。

顺带吐槽,至今不能理解中文维基中see译为另见,see also译为参见。

YFdyh000 (talk)02:16, 1 May 2016

我反倒可以理解为何see also翻译作参见,但却不能理解为何portal翻译成主题。

另外在我看来,also known as应称作“又称”。

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)02:51, 1 May 2016
 
 

章 (Chapter) 裡面會包含多個小節 (Section),而節裡面有會有許多段落 (Paragraph)。 "章節" 一詞只是很概略的去說明有 "一段文章" ,並無法明確的指出到定是章還是節。 若原文的意思本身也只是對一段文章概略的說法,那翻成 "章節" 便可,也無須去討論到底是章還是節。

Cwlin0416 (talk)14:22, 8 July 2016

主要是界面翻译,目前不少Section是译为段落。将Section译为章节是否比“节”或“段落”更合适。

YFdyh000 (talk)15:40, 8 July 2016

從原文的意思來看,我個人認為譯為 "章節" 是比 "段落" 適合的。

Cwlin0416 (talk)17:22, 11 July 2016
 

原则性同意,但请注意section至少在交通相关领域应该改译作区间。

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)08:03, 7 December 2016
 
 
 
 
 

Wikilabels 中对“damaging”的翻译

之前“damaging”一词是翻译成“破坏”,偏離了只標記是否有害的分類目的(況且維基人還會想到故意所為的「VAND」去)。現在我先改成「有害」(之前還折騰了「損毀」),如果有更好的提議的話也可以自己改掉。

Arthur2e507:25, 7 December 2016

Please note actions by User:Liuxinyu970226

This specific user (LXY) has been a source of common dread for a few members in zhwiki (Chinese Wikipedia) community, which mainly boils down these reasons:

Low translation quality
A zhwiki sysop once said that 9 of 10 translations that requires going to TWN to change is translated by LXY, and personally I found this mostly true too. On a brighter note, this might be LXY actually contributing such a great proportion of translations to MediaWiki.
Noncooperation
LXY refuses to use common terminology used on zhwiki, citing "TWN has nothing to do with the WMF" as his reason. While the reason is technically true, the terminology difference has lead to confusions both inside and outside of zhwiki -- zhwiki admins have to maintain a separate set of translations, and other MediaWiki webmasters get confused by many string differences.
Poor communication skills
LXY has been a terrible listener and an aggressive speaker. In my personal discussions (or rather name-calling) with LXY, my casual (or mock-Unicode?) <SOMETHING WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS> notation has been taken as an offense to the style guide. His inability of understanding CC licenses resulted in him attacking the style guide I am using solely due to the NC license used, not to mention his later shift of scope by talking about "uploading this file to commons and it will get copyvio'ed". In fact LXY also shifted topics in this reply by bringing in other members of the zhwiki community who are very loosely connected with my actions to a point that I actually learned some new knowledge from this interaction.
Disruptive behavior
As shown in the previous example, LXY commonly shifts topics around to achieve an imposing effect in discussions debates. In both of my personal discussions with him, he effective gets all TLWs: "are you still listing? come on baby". On the other hand, he is ironically easily offended by people using the casual (actually common) form of "you" in Chinese, and would threaten to start a block request for me only stressing what he has missed in his translation but not explaining it in full. This is a trait especially harmful to TWN zh community growth.

Note that this support discussion is not a permission revocation request or a block request, but an attempt to ask the specific user to stop their unconstructive actions by documenting it in public. Blocking should definitely not be the first option as LXY is a major contributor to zh-hans translations in MediaWiki. (As a random guy passing by fixing damaged parts reported on zhwiki IRC, I acknowledge that zhwiki depends on these devoted translators a lot.)

Further comments and edits are welcome.

Arthur2e505:37, 14 October 2016

Thanks for caring about unexpected translations and for bringing our attention on this. Generally, it's a good idea to ask a third person's opinion by discussing matters on the language portal, where I moved this discussion. In many cases, translators are able to reach a consensus, while personal disputes and appeals to authority are rarely productive.

Arthur2e5, what are the terms you refer to, or how many messages are involved? I only see a discussion about "stub".

Liuxinyu970226, please acknowledge that it's often hard to communicate and cooperate with you. Do you realise? Do you think you can make an extra effort?

Nemo (talk)06:07, 14 October 2016
Edited by author.
Last edit: 09:05, 14 October 2016

Hello Mr. Nemo bis, If some sentenses that I said are really foolish, shame, and therefore inacceptable by Arthur2e5, then I would say "Sorry for my bad words, Arthur2e5."

But as this user pointed some controversial things, here're my points:

  • As Special:MyLanguage/Project:About said:
    ar: Translatewiki.net ليس تابعًا لمشاريع مؤسسة ويكيميديا، ولا لأي مؤسسة أو مشروع مصدر مفتوح آخر؛ بل يُشعله Nike و Siebrand وهما مطوران لديهما خبرة طويلة في الترجمة، ومعهما فريق من العاملين.
    de: Translatewiki.net ist weder Teil der Wikimedia-Foundation-Projekte noch irgendeiner Stiftung oder eines Open-Source-Projekts.
    en: Translatewiki.net is not part of the Wikimedia Foundation projects, nor of any foundation or open source project.
    es: Translatewiki.net no es parte de los proyectos de la Fundación Wikimedia, ni de ninguna otra fundación o proyecto de código abierto.
    fi: Translatewiki.net ei kuulu Wikimedia-säätiön projekteihin eikä mihinkään säätiöön tai avoimen lähdekoodin projektiin.
    fr: Translatewiki.net ne fait pas partie des projets de la Wikimedia Foundation, ni d’aucune fondation ou projet en source libre.
    it: Translatewiki.net non fa parte dei progetti della Wikimedia Foundation, né di alcuna fondazione o progetto open source.
    ja: translatewiki.netは、ウィキメディア財団のプロジェクトの一部ではありませんし、その他の財団やオープンソースなプロジェクトの一部でもありません。
    ko: Translatewiki.net은 위키미디어 재단 프로젝트의 일부가 아니며, 또한 어떤 재단이나 오픈 소스 프로젝트도 아닙니다.
    nl: Translatewiki.net is geen onderdeel van de Wikimedia Foundation-projecten, noch van een stichting of een open source project.
    sv: Translatewiki.net är inte en del av Wikimedia Foundation-projekten, inte heller av någon stiftelse eller projekt med öppen källkod.
    vi: Translatewiki.net không thuộc các dự án của Wikimedia Foundation, và cũng không phải là tổ chức hay dự án mã nguồn mở.
    zh-hans: Translatewiki.net不属于维基媒体基金会项目,也不属于其他任何基金会或开源项目。
    zh-hant: Translatewiki.net並非維基媒體基金會的專案,亦不屬於任何基金會或開源專案。
    (Should I copy-paste anything else?) Therefore, the translations on Translatewiki.net, where possible, must be neutral between Wikimedia and non-Wikimedia environments. This user don't actually know, and think "any non-WMF wikis must also use 小作品 as the absolutely translation of stub, because stub is always from Wikipedia".
  • By "Low translation quality", let's see this user's translation:
    1. Translate "extra" as "多余" (lit.unnecessary): MathJax:Tex-ExtraOpenMissingClose/zh-hant (although my translation is also same case), MathJax:Tex-MissingLeftExtraRight/zh-hant
    2. MediaWiki:Stub-threshold/zh-hans (said above)
    3. Double standard on "deprecated": Replace 不推荐使用 as 已弃用 (MediaWiki:Securehtml-form-deprecated/zh-hans, MediaWiki:Errorhandler-error-deprecated/zh-hans, MediaWiki:Templatedata-doc-param-status-deprecated/zh-hans, ...), however with an exception: MediaWiki:Antispoof-deprecated/zh-hant (reversely changed)
    4. Translate MediaWiki:Coll-rendering finished note article rdf2latex/zh-hans with "you", but actually this isn't necessary tl;dr.
  • If this user is also pointing my "replace 你 by 您", that's logical expected. 你 is also used commonly as a word For reviling (the famous example of this line is 你妈, which means "your f*u*c*k*e*d mother", well, you really should translate your mother as 您妈 to be polite).
  • "Poor communication skills" so what? Shizhao is also having same problem so why don't you say him? (c.f. m:Stewards/Confirm/2015/Shizhao).
  • "refuses to use common terminology used on zhwiki".
    1. see Cwlin0416's case below;
    2. At least I translate template as 模板, Module as 模块, and in early months I also translate wiki as 维基 until someone told be that's a trademark, should not be used out of Wikimedia. Several of the words that I translated are already more and more Wikimedia friendly, and if you still point the "stub", Wikivoyage:互助客栈/存檔/2014年4月至6月#.28en.29_Empty_articles, where translated as 骨架条目 by @Zhuyifei1999:, so this user is also wrong?
  • If you still like discussions under Wikimedia's rule, that said, m:mw:Localisation#Use_standard_capitalisation and w:WP:ALLCAPS (however, it's necessary to be ALL CAPS for MySQL commonds and some abbreviations, e.g. TWN and CREATE DATABASE...), this user don't know, I AGFed to ask Thread:User_talk:Arthur2e5/Special:Diff/6829187/reply_(14):
    "For example: <A CERTAIN HIGHLY TECHNICAL PAGE THAT NO NORMAL EDITORS SHALL TOUCH> (which MySQL commond?) What a user that can use ALL CAPS, do you know [1] (link said above)"
    Isn't this a work? [Citation needed]

This user don't reply, and still suggests that TWN should be fully following Wikipedia's rule (c.f. the Thread:Support/Code_of_Conduct? that closed by Nemo bis).

I'm very kindly to try my best knowledge to talk with you, Arthur2e5. But if you already violated AGF (isn't this also from Wikipedia that you're from?), e.g.:

  • "首先我有必要告诉你..." (lit. First, I must tell you guys...)
  • "我把关键的 token 指出来你还看不懂,我也是很惊讶的。" (1.lit. I pointed the key "token" to you guys, and you guys still don't understand, I'm also surprising. 2. Which "token"? 3.What form this "w:wikt:token" follows? 4.Not sure if this user is a Chinese-American or not...)

And still use a lot of unsenseful, unnecessary, uncommons, unfree, and confusing "context-context-...-context" that undocumented on time (see title of phab:T135575 for example, I believe this user won't document what "multicol-indicator-charrange-friendly" is until my point). Then I don't think that I should still be polite to you.

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)07:46, 14 October 2016

Liuxinyu970226, even this reply of yours sounds quite aggressive. And yes, you should still be polite. If you can't be polite with a user, just avoid interaction. Do you think you can manage?

Nemo (talk)07:54, 14 October 2016

PS: A very polite sentense to you (both Arthur2e5 and Nemo bis): 对不起,我错了,我不应该在未经讨论的情况下擅自更改已经有共识的字句,请原谅我,谢谢了。

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)07:58, 14 October 2016

It's fine. Just note that "consensus" is not rock-solid -- you can change it with some discussion. (One problem that arises here is that how zhwiki consensus and twn translators can agree with each other without either party feeling unhappy -- twn translators may not like the idea of joining discussions where they do not belong, while zhwiki users may not like going to twn to discuss either.)

Arthur2e500:02, 16 October 2016
 

However, this user should also say sorry to me, because in Wikimedia:Wsa-form-attending-goals/zh-hans, this user translated Wikimania as "维基狂魔会议" (lit. Wiki Monster Event? Which is not official and not acceptable by language environment), also in the entire Wikimania, the scholarship is not scholarship from university, so "奖学金" should not be used to be non-controversial

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)21:33, 14 October 2016
 

Umm hmm.

Liuxinyu970226[edit]

Translate "extra" as "多余" (lit.unnecessary) ... although my is same case

I am not sure about where you learnt your Chinese or English. 多余 more closely means "an unnecessary extra", i.e. "redundant yet sometimes harmful".

MediaWiki:Stub-threshold/zh-hans

Hmmmmm, it's my example for your noncooperation. By the way I am fine with that zh_hant terminology, just don't miss that key token.

Oh wait you also talked about what "token" means? Sorry for that programming language parser terminology. Indeed it's too technical to be used for everyday talks.

Not sure if this user is a Chinese-American or not.

Thank you for appreciating my English writing skills. I scored 28/30 on TOEFL's writing section two years ago, which is really just OK.

Double standard on "deprecated": Replace 不推荐使用 as 已弃用

This comes with a reason. Most "deprecated" statements in the software industry can be read as "obsolete" which is more straightforward; hence "已弃用" (abandoned from use). That exception comes from their notes for translators. Yeah, read the notes.

你妈

Under the same logic, I would consider the word "mother" impolite as it is used in the phrase "motherf*cker".

Let's get the scope of that informal "you" (你) right: it's always used unless the people being spoken to is more senior in age, position, etc. than the speaker, or in cases where respect is preferred over intimacy. In fact using "您" to one's fellows usually implies irony, while properly used "你" doesn't. Finding my usage of "你" ironic as a fellow translator suggests either problems with understanding contemporary Mandarin written in the Simplified Chinese or extreme self-consciousness.

MediaWiki:Coll-rendering_finished_note_article_rdf2latex/zh-hans

Now you are constructing a broken sentence without a subject, or an improperly placed imperative sentence that goes down one's throat like an edgy block of plastic.

scholarship → 奖学金

Neither is it "some random grant". This scholarship thing is, by itself, a more scholar (学) thing.

The phrase "奖学金" by itself is not limited to a university or any sort of fixed school. It's just a grant (金) rewarded (奖) for scholarly (学) things. The "奖" part used in common expressions might be debatable, yet I consider it OK because it a) shows some screening process required for scholarship applications b) that's what people use to refer to scholarships anyway.

"维基狂魔会议" (lit. Wiki Monster Event)

"sth. 狂魔" literally means "sth. crazy monster", i.e. someone is obsessed ("addicted") with sth. It's far more "manic" than the current "维基媒体国际会" (Wikimedia International Conference) translation, and I just wrote it in for fun (well...) and waiting for other to pick it up for future meetings.

Shizhao is also having same problem so why don't you say him?

Why can I always find something to comment on when I read back... You are hitting the point of bringing up loosely related topics.

BTW you are sounding a bit shizhao-狂魔 now, as you also brought him up in that stub dispute. All I can say is that people learn to use their strengths and to avoid showing their weaknesses (扬长避短).

phab

See my reply there. Break it down, piece by piece.

so this user is also wrong?

Unfortunately he must be. But for him I am very happy to use the excuse of "historical limitations" or "lack of experience", while I don't think either applies to you.

"首先我有必要告诉你..." (lit. First, I must tell you guys...)

Having some agreements is an important premise for efficient discussions, as illustrated by this quote from former PRC President Jiang Zemin: "Now I have a feeling about news that we can have different views as long as we respect the same set of truth. And, [B]eing able to correctly express both one's own ideas and the interviewee's ideas in reports is what I consider as 'high level'."

still suggests that TWN should be fully following Wikipedia's rule

I frankly don't want to go Linus Torvalds for this. Please try to disambiguate between "common wiki principles" and "wikipedia policies cited as examples".

I also translate wiki as 维基 until someone told be that's a trademark,

I agree with you on that 维基 would be a good phonetic translation. This case sounds like Stratasys trademarking "Fused deposition modeling", forcing others like RepRap to invent a new term for the same 3D printing technique. Oh wait it's not WMF but a competitor trademarking that? Now it sounds like RepRap trademarking FDM and...

Well, I don't think this trademark would be a threat as 维基百科 is still actively in use. Not to mention wikia. (Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.)

Nemo[edit]

Well... As I mentioned, I am supposed to be just a random guy passing by doing random contributions. To me the term mainly goes down to "stub" and more cases which he brought up in that discussion. These zhwiki sysops (User:shizhao, User:范, et al.) mentioned previously should have better knowledge of these things.

Arthur2e522:29, 15 October 2016

One point: "BTW you are sounding a bit shizhao-狂魔 now". No, that's not right, the users who think shizhao is a monster, according to m:Stewards/Confirm/2015/Shizhao: Universehk, Vogone, Steinsplitter, ..., seems that he is mostly made Hong Kong people angry, so far such users are mostly from Hong Kong (and so that's not me).

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)02:42, 16 October 2016

I do hope that you have read my explanation on the word 狂魔 above. I am not interested in discussing all these disputes related to shizhao's alleged censorship that happened elsewhere on TWN.

Arthur2e504:28, 16 October 2016
 

For the last one (i.e. about trademark), there's an archived discussion m:Talk:Trademark_practices_discussion#維基 which is useful.

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)03:52, 16 October 2016

The links brought are basically WMF stuff in Taiwan. Sounds better than HuDong doing that in China, but lack of proper response does annoy me. Well let's say changing that single word in some substring search won't take too many man-hours.

Arthur2e504:31, 16 October 2016
 

Oops, WMF actually have official names for Wikimania and official (or de facto) translation of scholarship. Apologies for overriding what the translated host as well as fellow translators deems right.

Arthur2e502:53, 17 October 2016
 
 

FWIW, admins on zhwiki have gradually developed a knee-jerk reaction to bad/unfavourable translations. We just override the betawiki string locally and call it a day. The discussions here on the topic of glossaries or styles or anything would all get to the point of "we don't care what zhwiki uses", and thus we are forced to recreate the wheel again and again.

Jimmy Xu (talk)23:27, 15 October 2016

I'm not "don't care what zhwiki uses"-ing, the case you point looks like under User:Cwlin0416

Wondering if this user can also saying sorry to above? Also, is consensus really stabilizable (c.f. MassMessage translations)?

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)02:36, 16 October 2016

The terminology can be (mostly) stabilized, especially the "whom to take, tw or hk" split seen in zh-hant translations. (I am quite happy that no zh-SG speakers have argued with zh-CN speakers to date, by the way.)

As a side note, keeping translations from both sides in that fictional "whom to take from" table would be helpful for custom install-time language splitting by tools like OpenCC (it does hk-tw conversion too), thus providing a solution for current "merged hant" problem.

Arthur2e504:35, 16 October 2016

"The terminology can be (mostly) stabilized" haven't you seen the MassMessage example? Per history, the MassMessage was having these translations:

  • 大量信息发送者/大量消息发送者 (mainly provided by me)
  • 群发消息者/群發消息者 (provided by @飞舞回堂前:, a Wuu Chinese user)
  • 大量訊息寄件者 (provided by @Cwlin0416:)
  • 大量訊息發送者 (provided by @Bowleerin:)

Is this still stabilized? If still yes, then let you see the history of MediaWiki:Last/zh-hans where 11 diffs about "prev" happened.

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)07:48, 16 October 2016
 
 

Thanks Jimmy Xu for letting us know; we certainly have to make this locale more stable.

As far as I know, Cwlin0416 has stopped edit warring. If some user edit wars without having had some discussion, just report the fact here and I'll remove their translating rights for the time being. (To make an example, Arthur2e5 above has explained his reasons well enough for the mentioned translations.)

If translators are split only/mostly according to their linguistic background (Taiwan, Hong-Kong and what not), then we should seriously (re)consider giving each block their locale. Is this the case?

Nemo (talk)08:24, 16 October 2016

Good point! Well, zh-hk is actually available: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:Translate/core?group=core&language=zh-hk&filter=%21translated&action=translate , so the question is just zh-tw?

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)08:33, 16 October 2016
 

The thing with zh locales is that one would really like to use automation given that most differences come not from sentence structures, but from word choices. Split locales mean split storage, and as long as there is some newcomer is obsessed with getting the percentage to 100%, we get whole lots of redundancy.

A relevant system where mostly automated conversion across zh variants is MediaWiki's LanguageConvertor.

Arthur2e500:45, 17 October 2016

I don't think LanguageConverter should be implemented here, since it'd be more and more tricky (please, believe me, /zh pages are really bad in MediaWiki.org as per phab:T106131#1481796)

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)09:57, 17 October 2016
 

As for the obsession with 100 %, it would be enough to make the entire language's messages "optional". I believe there is no such configuration yet, but it would possibly not be that hard.

Nemo (talk)13:22, 30 October 2016
 

To: @Nemo:, @Liuxinyu970226:, @Jimmy xu wrk:

I'm agree to had some discussion before edit, but there is no list about terminology which zh-wiki uses, currently one which is i made, all zh-wiki wants is do not edit any translation, all accuse from zh-wiki is i'm making vandalism. is this right?

I'm not intentionally to start edit warring. But difference between Simplified Chinese and Traditonal Chinese not only word but also region (Taiwan, Hong Kong). Before i edit Traditional Chinese, there is much translations is not suitable because translations are just following Simplified Chinese, "even some translations are only for zh-wiki". Although change translation will affect some documentation which zh-wiki currently use, this is helpful to MediaWiki Traditional Chinese users growth.

MediaWiki is not only for Wikipedia but also open source project, MediaWiki's user not only Wikipedia. I'm not "don't care what zhwiki uses", but i'm care Mediawiki Traditonal Chinese users uses more than zh-wiki.

Cwlin0416 (talk)09:22, 29 October 2016
 
 
 
 

I would say that the header of that user has a sentense which made me angry: "Wikipedia is one of the most prominent users of TWN MediaWiki translations, and therefore a good indication of user habit/consensus."

Didn't that user read our Special:MyLanguage/Project:About? Doesn't they know that TWN is never a part of Wikimedia Foundation projects?

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)08:01, 17 August 2016

請將User中文譯法統一為「用戶」

我是維基百科的管理員,日常負責維基百科的繁簡轉換工作。參見上方討論串,伴隨著維基百科十幾年來的歷史,Mediawiki各個名字空間的簡繁體命名一直以來都是統一的。然而這兩年,繁體的命名以「正名」為目的做了大量修改,「用戶」一詞未經社群任何討論就被Cwlin0416修改成了「使用者」,導致目前維基百科出現了大量問題,例如交流不暢、用詞混亂、「使用者」和「用戶框」失去邏輯關係等等。維基百科社群曾多次對此事展開討論[1][2][3],雖然「使用者」一詞沒有得到任何人支持,但礙於社群對於Translatewiki沒有任何控制權,無法要求其修改。其後,Cwlin0416甚至想把「模板」一詞也改掉,但因為反對聲音過大而未遂。

根據Cwlin0416的說法,「使用者」才是正確的台灣用法。但實際上,無論是台灣人最常用的Facebook繁體中文版,還是台灣各大媒體[4],以「用戶」一詞翻譯「User」屢見不鮮,更不用說香港早已使用「用戶」一詞。因此,將「User」繁體譯法統一為「用戶」,並不會導致任何台港用戶產生閱讀障礙。維基百科一直是Mediawiki最重要的使用來源,為了維基百科十餘年的使用傳統和今後的順暢交流,希望能將User中文譯法統一為「用戶」,謝謝!

Chiefwei (talk)11:17, 24 June 2016
Edited by author.
Last edit: 11:24, 12 July 2016

很抱歉,這不是您想的那麼簡單。這看似只是兩種不同翻譯的爭議,但這背後卻存在著相當的歷史遺留問題(或許這也是海峽兩岸關係現狀的某種體現)。兩岸各方各自有成立自己的機構,規範各自的中文翻譯,由於受到來自各自不同的政治、學術及輿論界影響,儘管如今兩岸已逐步接受對方的用語,但由於各自不同利益需要而不輕易倒戈,故這一用語區別持續至今。

至於您提到的下面那個thread,我想額外指出其合法性問題:Zhxy 519在該wiki的編輯,除了回退什麼也沒有,像這種只回退的所謂user竟然公開對另一個user指手畫腳(而不是先利用user talk,這裡涉及翻譯爭議的詞基本用英文作折衷用語),甚至我以他的角度在勸導Cwlin0416時,更是反而被他無辜指責為「You are not authorized to make any arbitration.」(他早先對我的其他指責至今還存檔於您提供的第二個連結中:「我對Liuxinyu970226在跨維基計劃的編輯不吝微詞,甚麼都想插一手。」「這恰恰是以上Liuxinyu970226等人胡亂修改造成的」,至今我還沒找他要求道歉呢),我只想問:有哪位在某一wiki當管理員的user,在另一wiki卻純回退編輯,還胡亂指責他人?這不是破壞和越權這是什麼?這是很合法的編輯行為么?

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)02:00, 8 July 2016

你說對了一件事,沒有這麼簡單。 來反應問題的沒幾個是真的繁體中文的使用者,也沒幾個是願意貢獻的。 繁體中文的翻譯貢獻人員已寥寥可數,在這裡我最常看到的大概就 User:LNDDYL。 卻還有更多非繁體中文的使用者,即不想貢獻,又想要主張自己想要的,這不是很奇怪嗎? 那以後大家就動動嘴就好了。 就好像如果我去插手管簡體中文的翻譯用語,不也很奇怪嗎?

Cwlin0416 (talk)14:43, 8 July 2016
 

麻煩你先搞清楚一件事,我是以 "繁體中文" 以及 "Mediawiki 的使用者" 的身份來貢獻翻譯,並非 "維基百科" 的使用者。 TranslateWiki 本來就是一個開放而且鼓勵貢獻的平台,既使你是維基百科的管理員你也沒有權利干涉,而社群如何決定也不關我的事。 如果你身為使用 "繁體中文" 的使用者而且有意 "貢獻翻譯" 讓翻譯變的更好,我非常歡迎討論,否則這樣的討論是無意義的,因為社群並不會對翻譯有任何貢獻。 若你只是想藉由社群來指責我錯誤,抱歉,我沒有做錯任何事,用 "未遂" 一詞形容我想把 "模板" 也改掉,我個人認為是非常不恰當。 我停止也並非因為社群的反對,而是因為我認為還有其他更重要的翻譯必須完成,所以暫時擱置。

Cwlin0416 (talk)14:10, 8 July 2016

建議如果某個別地區需要使用特別的用字的話(以這個情況『使用者』在台灣地區常用),那可以在zh-TW介面中翻譯,而並非在zh-Hant中翻譯。

Shinjiman (talk)22:55, 10 August 2016

那麼這一句話您打算怎麼解釋呢?

This language code should remain unused. Localise in zh-hant please.
Liuxinyu970226 (talk)23:08, 10 August 2016

個人覺得翻譯擴展可以再改進一下,不用鎖死特定語言完全不能把它們翻譯;在有關語言上 (含fallback) 加上相關提示字句即可。

而暫時的解決為法是先切換成可供翻譯的語言,然後再切換回鎖上的語種,即可繼續翻譯。

Shinjiman (talk)07:50, 11 August 2016

您是想說phab:T51898是正常現象么,如果是我強烈反對。

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)08:16, 11 August 2016
 

你提的想法是對的,但是太理想了。現在根本連繁體中文的翻譯人員都沒有幾個,更遑論說要開一個新的語系來給各地區語言使用。 對我來說,首要的目標就是把翻譯完整度提高,我只知道我所 "說" 的所 "寫" 的是繁體中文,所以我在 "繁體中文" 翻譯,有人願意翻譯就要偷笑了。

如果今天繁體中文已經很完整了,也有來自各地的翻譯人員,要討論這些用語到底是台式、港式或者其他式,要放在那個地方, 我覺得可以討論討論,如果不是,又有什麼好討論的?。

非繁體中文的使用者,拿著社群的名號來要求翻譯一定經過他們的 "社群共識",而且不會對翻譯做出任何貢獻,這不是非常荒謬嗎?。

Cwlin0416 (talk)04:28, 7 September 2016
 
 
 
 
 

Report User:Cwlin0416's vandalism

User:Cwlin0416 is trying to replace the words established by usage by using a lot of his own words on zh-hant. Where can I stop his selfish behavior? Somebody please tell me. Thank you.--Zhxy 519 (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Zhxy 519 (talk)15:14, 27 May 2015

Did you already try to address him/her?

Purodha Blissenbach (talk)11:30, 28 May 2015

IIRC, he usually bypass the community consensus

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)12:27, 28 May 2015
 

I'm MediaWiki user, but i'm not Wikipedia user, and i'm native zh-hant user, I don't know why zh-cn users always want to change the translate which we actually use.

Cwlin0416 (talk)02:45, 29 May 2015

There's also some Taiwanese which are opposing your edit styles (e.g. User:LNDDYL & User:Liaon98)

Although they will more and more accept your translations, Could you please, As I'm crying to request, Follow the community consensus???

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)04:44, 29 May 2015

Can you please start a discussion on Portal_talk:Zh and work out a consensus there? Please do feel free to discuss in your native language. In the meantime, I would like to urge all of you to not revert and/or introduce more translations that involve the issue that's being discussed until a consensus has been reached. Please also remain civil (not that I get the impression civility is an issue right now); if you feel frustrated, it's a good thing to wait for a day and only then reply. In case you can not reach a decision, please us know here again, and we'll try to mediate. Is this something you can work with for now?

Siebrand10:02, 29 May 2015
 

Translate spending everybody a lot of time, especially keep keyword consistence. I don't know what is community consensus, If you guys think you can represent community, please prepare a list contain the keywords which is disputable, we can discuss. Do not like zhxy519, just revert some of my revision, it cannot solve the problem.

Cwlin0416 (talk)10:14, 29 May 2015

You don't know what is community consensus? OK w:zh:Wikipedia:共识

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)10:55, 29 May 2015
 

Also for "especially keep keyword consistence"

  1. [Citation needed]
  2. At least the "Sort by"s are translated as "Ordenar por:" en Español, but in Mantis:S sort label/es it's "Ordenado por:", likely in MediaWiki:Revcs-list-sort/es it's "Ordenar:"
Liuxinyu970226 (talk)22:53, 29 May 2015
 

Cwlin0416, as you haven’t learned consensus yet, learn it asap. Otherwise we have to ask for strict measures on you.I"m MediaWiki user, but i'm not Wikipedia user is not a good reason. Your work is affecting whole zh-hant wikiprojects seriously without most of users agreement.

Zhxy 519 (talk)13:45, 31 May 2015
 
 
 
 

If/when some decision are made about the terminology to use in some cases, please document them on Portal:Zh. The discussion seems ongoing so I don't see anything to do for TWN administrators yet.

Nemo (talk)13:35, 31 May 2015

Nemo, as you see, chinese translators are so inactive that without starting a whole-translatewiki discussion, there can hardly be people coming to pay attention to this issue.

Zhxy 519 (talk)13:53, 31 May 2015

I do pay attention but I am completely incapable to make contributions on the language level, as most of us are, since we do not understand the language, or the script. We can give general advice, of course.

Purodha Blissenbach (talk)15:42, 31 May 2015

Now the problem seems to be not language, but understanding of Wiki community guidelines.

Zhxy 519 (talk)12:06, 3 June 2015
 

Ok, i'm understand community consensus now.

Zhxy 519, Please answer my questions: 1. Are you native zh-hant user? 2. Are you zh-hant translation contributor? 3. What is disputable term? can you make a list?

Cwlin0416 (talk)10:40, 2 June 2015

You haven't understood consensus and your questions are just useless. Persuade the community first.

Zhxy 519 (talk)11:57, 3 June 2015

Zhxy 519, this was not a particularly constructive reply IMHO. Making a list of problematic terms is certainly useful and probably you can think of some (ideally in a new thread in Chinese).

Cwlin0416, you said above that you changed messages for consistency, so you probably know what you were making consistent. Please start listing the terms you worked on as well.

Nemo (talk)12:14, 3 June 2015
 
 
 
 

繁體中文翻譯者本來就少,再把Cwlin0416趕走就沒人了啦!再說,Cwlin0416的譯文品質還可以。 近期變更:繁體中文翻譯

-- By LNDDYL. (Talk)08:17, 12 June 2015
 

Another issue is about User:Hudafu, I have looked the newest version of

Mobile-frontend-time-precision-Gannum ("$1 billion years CE"): "公元$10亿年" Mobile-frontend-time-precision-Mannum ("$1 million years CE"): "公元$100万年" Mobile-frontend-time-precision-BCE-Gannum ("$1 billion years BCE"): "公元前$10亿年" Mobile-frontend-time-precision-BCE-Mannum ("$1 million years BCE"): "公元前$100万年"

Are these still work well with "$10" or "$100", should we revert these 4 edits?

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)03:36, 13 July 2015
 

For the translation specialised to the Taiwan vocabulary, it should be translated in zh-TW instead of zh-Hant.

For the translation between zh-Hant and zh-Hans, the difference between them should be minimal as there's fallback mechanism for those Chinese languages.

Shinjiman (talk)08:05, 20 November 2015

Therefore we should re-enable zh-cn/zh-tw on interface? I don't think so, unless if you are claiming the zh-hans and zh-hant should better be used by Overseas Chinese.

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)10:05, 13 December 2015

For this one, the Gan Chinese and the Classical Chinese are fallback to the Traditional Chinese. So in general those two are not intended to use as the Taiwan Chinese vocabulary, where they were translated in Traditional Chinese translation, are not suitable to localise them there.

Shinjiman (talk)04:30, 31 May 2016

So the same reason that "Why don't fallback yue to zh-hant or zh-hk"?

Liuxinyu970226 (talk)08:35, 1 June 2016

The reason for Yue is similar for that so I oppose the Yue language to fallback to zh-Hant.

By the way MediaWiki never disabled the zh-CN/zh-TW interface so those languages can be translated if the translations are different to their parent language.

Shinjiman (talk)15:06, 2 June 2016
 
 
 
 
 

模板 vs. 樣板

A thread, Thread:Portal talk:Zh/編輯戰?!, was moved from here to Portal talk:Zh/存档/1. This move was made by Liuxinyu970226 (talk | contribs) on 14 December 2014 at 10:18.
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