User talk:RobertL/Archive 1

This is an archive of User talk:RobertL from January 2008 - June 2009, please do not edit it.

Welcome to Betawiki!

Hi MinuteElectron. Welcome to Betawiki! Please create a user page on which you describe which language(s) you will be working on. If you are going to be an active user here, please also add your name to the languages you will be working on. Before you can use Special:Translate, and Special:Magic, please request translator rights. If you have a wiki where a lot of translations have already been made, you can make an import request. Other useful pages are linked in the translatewiki.net menu that comes with this message.

Once you have started translating, your work will be committed to the standard product every few days. If you want to explicitely request your work to be added, please make a request for commit.

I wish you a productive and pleasant stay. Cheers! Meno25 10:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. MinuteElectron 15:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Babel-Extension

In the betawiki newsletter, there is written that you were working on a Babel-Extension for MediaWiki. Good thing. I've been contemplating the same. I've discussed this, and some related ideas, with User:GerardM about a year ago. In the Wikipedia of the Ripuarian languages, I've collected all Babel related texts I could find in several dozens of wikis for about 270 language codes, see this directory, see this explanaton of the scheme, and the sample page for English. Vary the code at the end of the URLs, so as to inspect others.

• I'd like to suggest to offer additional Zxxx (script codes as of ISO 15924) for those languages having more than one script used, e. g. Khasakh, Kurdi, etc.
• I'd like to likewise suggest offering additional orthography indicators for those (Macro)languages having more than one generally used system of orthography, which we have already for nds, zh, e. g.

If you want to discuss, or if you'd like assistance of any kind, feel free to address me. If I can help, I shall help. Greetings. --Purodha 01:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Replied on mw:User_talk:MinuteElectron#Babel-Extension. MinuteElectron 15:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• As to the messages, I can easily supply some 1000 messages in the language that is being talked about from the data, we that have collected. This extension itself is talking in the language of the wiki or in the uselang= language, which is not the same. So I see less use for the data as ist currently is.

Could you please take a look at Support#Babel extension: male/female forms? --EugeneZelenko 18:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. MinuteElectron 15:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You asked:

I had someone else ask me about orthogrpahy -- so it seams that it is a desirable feautre -- does anyone know where I can get a full list of them for incoroporating into the extesnsion? MinuteElectron 12:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

See http://people.w3.org/rishida/utils/subtags/index.php?searchtype=6&searchtext=notext&submit=Display - there you'll find tarask towards the end of the list. Also follow the relevant links in the "reated links" section.

(Note, there is currently a minor bug in the above page which truncates mutli-line comments. Either refer to the iana web site or temporary URL [1] or use [2] on your own machine, to get around it) --Purodha Blissenbach 10:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It has been decided that orthorgaphy's are too far out of scope of the extension for incorporation (Babel is intended to represent languages solely), they are a very political issue and often cause disagreements and tension. Thank you for pointing me to this anyway. MinuteElectron 11:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

script codes

As to the script codes in general: It may be useful to indicate script knowledge for few languages. We currently have roughly half a dozen languages having more than one script. While presenting a plain lanugage code, say und, should likely be understood implying that a user reads and writes all relevant scripts, one should be able to indicate absence of knowledge by using a script code (without mentioning the others, that is), e.g. und-Cyrl (Cyrillic) so as to tell that a user is unlikely to understand, say, und-Arab (Arabic).

This is, however, needing more discussion, and should be seen as an extension to the Babel extension.

See also bug 14010, and read the papers mentioned there in comment 2.

We can go to quite some level of detail, and with some (few) wiki projects, and localizations, we do already. At least these projects, I believe, should be refelected in the Babel system on the long run. (But then the question arises, why not make it simple, and include all possibilities?) --Purodha Blissenbach 10:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The topic of script codes is a very interesting idea, and may indeed be free of controversy enough for acceptance. I'll have to discuss this with Nike and Siebrand, however if it is agreed then it may be implemented at some point. MinuteElectron 11:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

male / female versions

I translated most messages meanwhile, but I am uncertain about the point wheter or not I should have thanslated the female/male version to Kölsch (ksh). The language allows for both message versions with explicit gender, and without. So I choose to translate them all. If that is correct, the help text for the translation should imho state that more clearly. I interpret the current text as "if there is a chance for a good genderless expression in the language, stick with it". Greetings. --Purodha Blissenbach 10:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The male/female/neuter messages are optional. That is a pretty clear indication that they are (most probably) not required. As for the message documentation: please add it. It's a wiki, you can change it! :P Siebrand 11:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I made a template for the Babel extension message descriptions due to the vast number, I will review this and perhaps modify it as needed; although I thought it was sufficiently accurate. MinuteElectron 11:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Difference between -x and -x-n messages

This extension contains interface messages named babel-0, babel-1, (etc) and babel-0-n, babel-1-n, (etc). What is the difference between these two sets? (message text looks very similar)(where these are used?) -yyy 10:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If you read the message description this would be obvious, the -x messages have three parameters, while the -x-n messages only have two (the third being replaced by the localisation of the language name). MinuteElectron 11:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but the intended rendering seems to be meant to be the same (in -x-n messages just last parameter is hardcoded). Also, where are used -x messages? (it looks like the babel box uses only -x-n) -yyy 11:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

They are used when the language they are in is not the same as the language the box is describing, used when no translation is available in that language. MinuteElectron 12:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I just tried on -1 message (on cu language (i actually do not understand it, it just is not translated and can be used for testing purpoese)), which i had translated a while ago, but that box showed up in english (in preview). Or maybe i am getting something completely wrong? These (-x messages) actually can show up in betawiki? -yyy 13:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You can see the intended usage of the -x messages at Portal:Cu. When the wikis content language is set to the language you are translating in (here it is en) then the -x messages will be used if no translating is found. The third parameter is then used as the language name. These messages can and do show up in betawiki. MinuteElectron 13:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Wiki content language is not the same as language set in user preferences? (i have lv in preferences and most of interface shows up in lv) (these boxes in portal:cu shows un in en, not lv). -yyy 13:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Wiki content language refers to the default language that the wiki interface is in (i.e. when you are logged out, or before you customize your settings). The language you set in preferences (lv in your case) is your interface language. Due to caching the content language must be used, rather than your interface language. MinuteElectron 15:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

a bug?

Currently, the Babel box on my user page looks pretty weird. Here is some of it:

• gsw-1 Dieser Benutzer hat grundlegende Kenntnisse von Alemannisch.
• af-1 Hierdie gebruiker het basiese kennis van Afrikaans.
• pdc-1 Dieser Benutzer hat grundlegende Kenntnisse von Deitsch.
• pfl-1 This user has basic knowledge of Pfälzisch.
• sxu-1 Dor Benutzor hior kann krad ma' ä ganz kleenes bissl Sächs'sch, 's is abbor eing'sch nisch dor Rede wärt.
• bar-1 Dieser Benutzer hat grundlegende Kenntnisse von Boarisch.
• gsw-1 Dieser Benutzer hat grundlegende Kenntnisse von Alemannisch.
• wep-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon ennem ripoaresch Platt drop.
• swg-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon ennem ripoaresch Platt drop.
• sli-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon ennem ripoaresch Platt drop.
• vmf-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon ennem ripoaresch Platt drop.
• pdt-1 This user has basic knowledge of Plautdietsch.
• stq-1 Dissen Benutser boalt un ferstoant n Bitje Seeltersk.
• eur-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon ennem ripoaresch Platt drop.
• nl-1 Deze gebruiker heeft elementaire kennis van het Nederlands.
• vls-1 Deze gebruiker bezit kennis van het West-Vlams op elementair niveau.
• li-1 Deze gebroeker bezèt kinnes van 't Plat op illementaer huuegdje.
• lb-1 Dëse Benotzer huet Grondkenntnisser vun der Lëtzebuergescher Sprooch.
• lfn-1 Esta usor es poca capas de Lingua Franca Nova.
• sco-1 This user has basic knowledge of Scots.
• gmh-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon ennem ripoaresch Platt drop.

There are several instances of indentcal message, but there should be different ones.

• wep, sli, … gmh, are outright wrong.

There are also several instances of differing messages (in ksh, de, en) looking like a variety of fallback languages which should indeed be (in part) identical, if a fallback language is being used.

• pdc, pdt, pfl, for example.

If you want to know in more detail, what I expect, and what is shown instead, let me know, please. --Purodha Blissenbach 15:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

What interface language do you use? I cannot see any issues in your user pages Babel boxes, although interface language should not have any influence. MinuteElectron 16:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

My interface language is set to ksh, my favourite target language to translate to.

I just looked it up again. It still says, e.g. "wep-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon ennem ripoaresch Platt drop." which is wrong. wep is Westphalian, and not related to Ripuarian at all. It is, in fact, a not so small subgroup of languages under the nds Umbrella. So if the ksh text were used since there is no wep, and in absence of a source for the name "Westphalian", localized or not, the message should be "wep-1 Heh dä Medmaacher hät Jrondlaare fon wep drop."

The same holds for gmh, svg, sli, vmf

Something has changed since yesterday night about eur; as listed above, it was showing the wrong "Ripuarian" msg last night, and now shows the localized version that I had entered last night. (Since ~20 minutes, eur, is also present in Names.php, but I doubt, Betawiki had its code base updated that quickly) --Purodha Blissenbach 17:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The interface language does have an influence, I found the abovementioned gmh, svg, sli, vmf boxes on my user page are always using the current interface language, be it selected via preference, or via uselang=. --Purodha Blissenbach 17:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying this, I will look into it. MinuteElectron 19:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This has been fixed by Nike. MinuteElectron 13:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

footer text

In most implementations in most Wikipedias, we have Babel boxes with a footer line providing a link to the local supercategory from where you can navigate to all subcats collecting users by language skills. They're usually labelled "Search for users by language" or something the like. I suggest to add it to the extension in a way similar to the Mediawiki:Sidebar entries – that is using two messages, one giving a text (e.g. "Search for users by language"), and the other being a page name, (the category, e.g. ":Category:Users by language") and use it approximately like this: {{#if:{{{text|}}}|{{#if:{{{page|}}}|[[:{{{page}}}|{{{text}}}]] }} }} creating another row if something is rendered. So, locally, a wiki can switch this table row off, if it is not wanted, by setting either parameter to be empty. --Purodha Blissenbach 15:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I will implement this at some point, when I get a chance, although as it stands it seams unlikely that Babel will be enabled at Wikimedia wikis. MinuteElectron 16:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This has been implemented. MinuteElectron 16:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Nahuatl (nah) does not show

We are observing a strange, inconsistent, behaviour, so it seems. For few more details, see Support#Why nah babel doesn't show? Greetings --Purodha Blissenbach 19:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Responded on Support. MinuteElectron 19:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Localising the names of languages

Hi, I'm working on Venetian translations. Actually on Translating:Languages I see for every language the name in Italian (my default fallback) and the native name. Where can I traslate this names to Venetian? And are this names used somewhere on wikipedia or only locally in betawiki? GerardM told me to talk to you for these informations. Thanks. Candalua 11:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Currently the message names are sourced from two places, if the 'babel-*-n' message exists for your particular language then the language name will be within the message itself so does not need localising elsewhere. In the event a localaised 'babel-*-n' message is not found then the message name is taken from the CLDR extension, you can speak to User:Nike about this. You may have also just noticed a bug, I will look into this later today. Thanks. MinuteElectron 13:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

My Mistake

Dear MinuteElectron,

Thanks for your messaage on my talk page bringing the my mistake of translating /qqq pages. I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. As you could make out, it was done accidentally as I did not recognize the problem. May I request you to kindly help me locate those pages I mistakenly translated! so that I can revert them back!

Once again I apologize for the inconvenience caused to the other translators due to my mistake.

Dr. Dinesh Karia^{(Talk) (contribs)} 17:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Use of code in OpenLayers message translation

Hi, Just wondered what your reason for adding code tags to OpenLayers tags was, currently exporting the OpenLayers messages and it would be helpful to know this. Thanks. RobertL 21:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

There are few intranslatable parts in these messages. These have to be marked as having a foreign language. (Also see this internationalisation hint). There are basically two ways, how this is customarily done with our language:

• italics  are used for textual elements in a foreign language inside sentences,
• code  is used for non-textual pieces, such as parameter names and values, when appearing verbatim, etc.

The same scheme is used with all MW messages and with all MW extensions alike. Although (X)HTML defines several more kinds of markup for these purposes, such as VAR, ARG, ABBREV, etc., these are not used for the sake of simplicity, and uniformity.

If you find errors or omissions, or things that deserve to be translated, please let me know. I had to make guesses here and there. --Purodha Blissenbach 11:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for explanation. RobertL 11:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)